Proposing changes to the native names of some units and buildings

[Vantha]

Over the course of researching for the encyclopedia I've found and noted down a few cases of units or buildings, where (I think) a new native name in place of the current one would be more fitting and correct.

Plus, if I remember correctly, @ShadowOfHassen did too, from his research.

And, of course, everyone is free to share their suggestions here as well.

 

My question is: Would it be possible to get them into the game?

It would only require editing the "SpecificName" property in he designated XML template. My idea is to list all of my suggestions in this thread here, explain my thought process and cite the sources. And then submit the names, that people agree with / confirm, on phabricator.

 

Is this wanted / welcomed? I only want to make the effort of extensive researching and laying out my reasoning if there's a good chance the names make it into the game. (Of course, only the ones that members of the wildfiregames team end up considering worth using). I really don't want to seem uppish or pushy because that's totally not how this is meant. I just don't want to dedicate myself to work that ultimately leads to no outcome.

 

Hope you understand what I mean,

Vantha

[Gurken Khan]

I assume some thought went into the native names, but sure, if you got better suggestions and the sources for them I'm all for choosing the more appropriate names!

Probably the devs and players would agree, so I don't see a reason why they shouldn't make it into the game.

[Vantha]

Firstly (I think I've brought this up at some point in the past already):

Scythian Archer:

They are only referred to as "the Archers" or "the Scythians" (both labels for "barbarians"), and also - most characteristically - as the (S)peusinians (in Greek: "(S)peusinioi"). Therefore I suggest the following change:

Toxótēs Skythikós (a word-by-word translation into Greek) --> Speusinios or Peusinios

Sources:

Quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_archers:

The Scythian archers were called toxotai (τοξόται, literally "[the] archers"), Skythai (Σκύθαι, literally "[the] Scythians"), and Speusinioi (Σπευσίνιοι), which was named after a certain Speusinos, the alleged founder of the force.

 

https://www.thecollector.com/scythian-archers-ancient-athens/:

Much later in the 2nd century CE, the Greek scholar Julius Pollux wrote:        

“Those public slaves before the law course and other gatherings, to whom they gave the task of restraining those who behaved inappropriately and those who said what should not be said, were called “Scythians” and “archers” and “Speusinioi” after the man who organized their service.     (Julius Pollux 8.131-2)    

Of the politician Speusis, nothing is known, though the name is corroborated by the (undated and unnamed) scholiast for Aristophanes’ play The Acharnians:        

“The Archers are public slaves, guards of the city, 1,000 in number, who first dwelt in tents pitched in the middle of the agora, but then moved to the Areopagus. These were called “Scythians” and “Peusinoi”. A certain Peusis – one of the Politicians of old – having organized their activities.”     (Scholiast On Aristophanes, Acharnians 54)

 

/https://www.stoa.org/demos/article_scythian_archers@page=all&greekEncoding=UnicodeC.html:

Archers: The public slaves, guards of the city, in number 1000, who formerly lived in the Agora, camping out in the middle, but later moved to the Areopagus. These were called ‘Scythians’ and ‘Speusinioi,’ from a certain Speusinos, one of the ancient politicians, who organized their affairs” (Τοξόται· οἱ δημόσιοι ὑπηρέται, φύλακες τοῦ ἄστεος, τὸν ἀριθμὸν χίλιοι, οἵτινες πρότερον μὲν ᾤκουν τὴν ἀγορὰν μέσην σκηνοποιησάμενοι, ὕστερον δὲ μετέβησαν εἰς Ἄρειον Πάγον, ἐκαλοῦντο δὲ οὗτοι καὶ Σκύθαι καὶ Σπευσίνιοι; ἀπὸ Σπευσίνου τινὸς τῶν πάλαι πολιτευομένων συντάξαντος τὰ περὶ αὐτούς) (Suda tau,772; see also Schol. In Aristoph. Ach. 54, which is almost identical except for saying “Peusinioi” and “Peusinus” instead of “Speuninioi” [That's a typo, it should be “Speusinioi”] and “Speusinos”; also Hescythius, 1137; Schol. In Aristoph. Ach. 54; Schol. In Aristoph. Ach. 707; Schol. In Aristoph. Lys. 184; Suda omega,243; Suda tau,771).

 

[Vantha]

Secondly (and I've brought this one up in the past as well)

The Han mangonel (catapult):

A disclaimer straight away: I do not speak Chinese, so I can't confirm terms first hand or use primary sources.

The current name is a literal translation of the word "trebuchet" into Chinese. (Traction) catapults in Ancient China instead actually were referred to as
"砲pào", the same word that is later also used for cannons. In the much later Song dynasty catapults were also classified by the number of wooden spars making up the catapult's arm. The 3D model in-game has one only which would make it a "single-beam trebuchet", a "筲砲砲Dān Shāo Pào", though the frame looks a bit different. The same military compendium also mentions the "crouching tiger" catapult, the "虎蹲砲Hǔ dūn pào" which looks pretty similar to ours. However, in my opinion this last name is way too specific, and seems exclusive for the Song period.

Therefore, I suggest the following change:
Tóushí Chē -> Pào or Dān Shāo Pào (and just maybe Hǔ dūn pào)


Sources:

Quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangonel:

The mangonel was called al-manjanīq, arrada, shaytani, or sultani in Arabic. In China, the mangonel was called the pào (砲).

• Whirlwind – a swivel mangonel for shooting small missiles that could be turned to face any direction
  • Whirlwind battery – five whirlwind mangonels combined on a single turntable
• Pao che (catapult cart) – a whirlwind mangonel on wheels
• Crouching tiger – medium sized mangonel considered stronger than the whirlwind type but weaker than the four-footed
• Four-footed – a trestle-frame mangonel for shooting heavier projectiles
  • Two-seven component – different weight classes for the four-footed type indicated by the number of poles bound together to create the swinging arm

And this paper: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paul-Chevedden/publication/285140517_The_Traction_Trebuchet_A_Triumph_of_Four_Civilizations/links/577aaf5508aece6c20fbd9a1/The-Traction-Trebuchet-A-Triumph-of-Four-Civilizations.pdf:
See page 452 and the corresponding images from page 474 onwards