oshron

like i said, the buildable Wonders shouldnt do anything unique to one another, but an editor-only version could very well give a bonus where buildings do more damage to ships

personally, i think that, if another Hellenic faction is added, it should be the Syracusans. but since there's already written designs for the Thebans as well, perhaps both can be included. that would modify the civ list to: Achaemenid Persians Athenians Britons Carthaginians Gauls Iberians Republican Romans Spartans Syracusans Thebans Macedonians Mauryan Indians that would put us at an even twelve civs personally, i always like it when there's an even number of factions, so twelve is pretty ideal

its called Phase Advancement XP

well ive been working on the mythology mod for some time, its just that i recently decided to revise their units and buildings; their in-game pantheon is already complete and their other mythological aspects are about halfway done. i was just wondering if anyone would mind if i borrowed content from the units and buildings in this thread

just out of curiosity, would anyone mind if i adapted some units and structures from this into my own mod idea? it also includes the Egyptians, but is dated to only the New Kingdom (the height of independent Ancient Egyptian power) and would also be encompassing their mythology as part of the civilization

what's been suggested so far (by myself and others) is: that every civ needs a Wonder (eventually) civs that can have a special wonder for water maps should (ex: Library of Alexandria and Lighthouse of Alexandria for the Macedonians) Wonders should grant victory under certain consitions if they stand for a set amount of time (like in AOE, etc.) Wonders should give a morale boost to allied units for existing Wonders should have two versions--regular gameplay buildable versions, and editor-only nonbuildable versions; regular gameplay versions all have the same effects no matter what they are or what civ builds them, but editor-only versions would grant unique powers depending on what the civ that built it is known for or what it stood for (Hanging Gardens, for instance, grants bonuses to gathering food; the Library of Alexandria would allow the player to research foreign technologies) Wonders should grant one of three abilities that can be toggled on or off one at a time and affect territorial influence: Imperialism improves the player's, Hegemony hurts the enemy's, and Alliance improves allies'

so its more like there's three buttons on the Wonder that can be toggled on and off (one at a time or not at all)? sounds like a good way to raise incentive for building a Wonder outside of "wonder victory" settings. perhaps different Wonders can have one or another of the "techs" automatically enabled depending on that civilization's role or the Wonder's impresssions as a representation of that civilization's might. like, for example, the Parthenon could automatically have "Alliance" enabled while a hypothetical Western/Imperial Roman wonder would automatically have "Imperialism" enabled. i'm for this idea, as well as having Wonder Victory conditions that can be turned on and off, but still think that more unique effects should be added in, but only for editor-only versions of the wonders that can't be built in normal gameplay

OH! IDEA! maybe the heroes could have some kind of standard with them as well, specifically to indicate them as heroes (alot of the heroes in Empire Earth carried flags in appropriate time periods), and regular units get some kind of indicator around their feet to show that theyre in the area of effect of the hero's aura (perhaps a generic ancient symbol; perhaps teh sun wheel used in the game's logo? or it could be different for each broad civ (for example, the Hellenic civs would all use the same symbol while the Carthaginians have a unique one)

bonuses given by auras (eg, temporary ones) could be shown with golden numbers, like in AOM

one possibility that comes to mind is that campaigns could only be semi-linear depending on what objectives you accomplished or didn't accomplish. using a fictional example, suppose you had a campaign where you played as the romans and were pitted against the Athenians and Gauls, as well as having a number of domestic goals; if you don't achieve those domestic goals within a certain amount of time (unless you accomplish one of the others sooner) you get a different ending that unlocks an alternative ending where your own people rebel and you forge an alliance with the Athenians. however, if you defeat the Athenians then you get a mission which details that the exhausted Romans were defeated by the Gauls; if you defeat the Gauls, then you get a mission where the Romans and Athenians come to an agreement and join forces to fight a more dangerous mutual enemy. alternatively, there could be side-stories that are unlocked if you achieve an additional goal in the game, much like in some of the Fire Emblem games; the side-missions wouldn't have much bearing on teh grand scheme of things, but would add more depth to the story and give you hints to some things that you could do in certain missions. for example, in an Alexander the Great campaign (basing my supposition on Empire Earth's Greek campaign) a side-level between the Battle of Tyre and Battle of Gaugamela missions could take place in Egypt and give you hints on how to reinforce your army with Ptolemaic Egyptian units that there would be no indication of otherwise

a fair point, though im not sure the differences between the Qin and Han dynasties are really distinct enough to warrant being separate factions incidentally, i actually collected a fair amount of information on Han Chinese arms and armor for a Deadliest Warrior take-off on another board (which would have pitted a group of Han Warriors against a Persian Immortals). here's what i had for that: Armor: scale corselet of leather and iron, possibly with a protective layer of black lacquer (the lacquer dates to the Qin rather than Han), and lamellar cuirass; shoulder guards and helmet, though leather caps were more common historically ((skirmishers usually lacked armor while mainline infantry were well-protected, and officers had heavier armor)) Weapons: dao (saber), ji (halberd), zhuge nu (repeating crossbow), jian (double-edged straight sword; might be superfluous with the dao), wooden shield reinforced by a metal center and rim there's also this that i wrote up for my own reference long before that: 221 BC: unification of China under Qin; Imperial Era last 15 years Qin emperor standardized writing systems, weights, and coinage; made the private possession of weapons illegal; established a road and canal system to quickly deploy troops; a centralized empire became the norm for the rest of Chinese history the greatest threat to Qin and Han China was nomadic confederations such as Xiongnu; the nomads used fast horse archers which were much faster than Chinese soldiers, so thee Chinese built the Great Wall and used diplomacy and bribes Qin general Meng Tian ousted the Xiongnu from the Ordos Maodun conquered Eastern Han and drove out the Yuezhi the Great Wall required 10,000 men to keep it in Chinese hands, plus 50-60 thousand citizen-soldiers in the frontiers to reduce costs of supplying them; a professional army emerged to compensate for the farmers' lack of cavalry skill, which consisted of Han mercenaries, convicts, and subjugated Xiongnu 31 BC: Han China abolished universal conscription, and the borders extended from the Yangtze to Vietnam cavalry became more important as time went on the Xiongnu lived in what is now north and western China, Mongolia, Central Asia, and Korea; after conquering them, the Chinese had to hold the territories against revolts by such people as the Qiang, Xianbei, and Xiongnu the Qin utilized conscripts; by Eastern Han, the army was mostly volunteers and conscription could be avoided by paying fees or giving the government supplies, horses, or slaves the end of Han China had a huge agrarian uprising that was quelled by governors who formed their own armies, and the central army was dissolved and ultimately led to the Three Kingdoms period Wei China's army depended on the Buqu that made a hereditary military career for certain families, meaning that a male relative would have to replace a soldier if he died (like in Mulan ); the hereditaries made up the bulk of the infantry Wei cavalry was similar to the Han in that they hired the Xiongnu, and provincial armies became the bulk of the Wei army; the central army was a reserve force the Chinese invented the stirrup 304 AD: Jin China collapses in civil war and the Xiongnu under Liu Yuan rebel, forming the Five Barbarian Tribes, or Wu Hu 316 AD: Jin China loses all its territory north of the Huai, and north China is ruled by Sinicized barbarians like the Xianbei, while south China remains Han in the Era of Division. this made the separate militaries diverge and develop very differently the Northern Chinese armies were based around nomadic cavalry but used Chinese as foot soldiers and siege personnel, but was ineffective and they were mostly destroyed by the Jin or Xianbei 468 AD: Xianbei take north china; Northern Wei created the earliest equal field land system and fubing system; fubing HQ commanded 1000 farmer-soldiers each for wartime Tang China had large contingents of heavy infantry. A key component of the success of Sui and Tang armies, just like the earlier Qin and Han armies, was the adoption of large elements of cavalry. These powerful horsemen, combined with the superior firepower of the Chinese infantry (powerful missile weapons such as recurve crossbows), made Chinese armies powerful Fanzhen = local general (hero?) the Tang used Arab mercenaries Song China relied on late Tang gunpowder weapons and bribes to fend off enemies such as the Khitan, Tangut, Jurchen, and Mongols; they used fire lances, cast-iron gunpowder bombs, rockets, China's first navy

personally, i like the Total War idea for campaigns, since it would be something that isn't really used in RTS games (Total War is real-time tactics and turn-based strategy). however, narrative campaigns a la AOK, AOM, and Empire Earth are definitely easier to make since they're much more linear. therefore, when it gets to that, it would probably be a good idea to include both kinds, with narrative campaigns being the most common (because they'd be easier to make by casual gamers/designers with what material is already in the game)as for multiplayer "campaigns", it would probably be easier in that case to use a HUGE custom multiplayer map with lots of triggers and different objectives for each player; this was used alot in AOM

that's what i'd personally suggest; perhaps there could also be different auras depending on the culture or background of that hero, just to make it more unique i think maybe he meant that the auras would visually be represented by a "heroic glow" around hero units

the Japanese can work as a civilization, just not in Part 1; the most notable period in Japanese history that falls into 0ad's timeframe is the Yamato period from about 250-710 AD the Chinese could potentially have three factions devoted to them--the Wei, the Shu, and the Wu--if they can be made distinct enough from each other. another possible inclusion is the Xiongnu, who were basically the equivalent of the Mongols in their time (and were eventually absorbed into Chinese culture). notably, the Mongols themselves would have to be excluded since they were a non-entity during 0ad's timeframe. for the Koreans specifically, i would suggest the Kaguryo

i wouldnt say its a waste; those of us who aren't actually making the game (such as me) coming up with ideas now can help save time later, if we work ou the techs beforehand. maybe we could make a thread to compile tech ideas and what they would dospeaking of which, i would say that the types of technologies to work out presently would be "common" technologies that most or all the civilizations would have, sorta like most techs that were, indeed, available to nearly every civ in AOK for instance

what i'd personally recommend for the earliest 0 AD campaigns would be a very basic one where you win or lose if a certain unit or building is destroyed or if you reach a certain part of the map, like in the first AOE game. Part 2 could probably have "true" narrative campaigns with grounded story and narration, though if it ever gets to that more effort should be put into a Learning Campaignincidentally, Mythos_Ruler, i think it would be most appropriate for you yourself to be the game's narrator when it gets to that

by narrative campaigns, you mean story-based ones like in AOK and AOM, right?

agreed. of anything that's been cut, triggers should be reinstated, if for no other reason than so a learning campaign can be included, with other campaigns being included in subsequent patches

alternatively, the tech screen could scroll up-down or sideways (one or the other) to show everything. personally, i'd recommend up-down scrolling. also, each unit/building/tech should probably have a (relatively) unique sprite depending. for example, perhaps instead of having a relatively complex unit portrait, the different unit classes could have their weapon as their symbol with a background resembling a horse or hoofprint to indicate cavalry units, with specifics coming up when the player hovers the cursor over each portrait

certainly sounds like a good way to make each civ more unique to me. on that matter, though, i believe you once mentioned that it was planned for there to be a provision that researching one tech forbade you from researching another, forcing your civ to follow a certain focus? will this apply to the unit-related technologies?

an idea occurs to me: what if farms are technically infinite and have a relatively low cost, but each farm deducts wood from your stockpiles as long as they are being farmed, but produces food at a rate of several times faster than wood is lost (say, at a rate of 5-to-1; for every five units of food you build up, you lose one unit of wood) and the farmers stop farming if you run out of wood. researching farming technologies will increase the rate at which you gather food from farms, both the rate you get it and the number of food per one unit of wood. it could perhaps advance first to 7 units 10% faster, then 10 units 15% faster, and so on: 12 to 20%, 15 to 30%, 20 to 35%, like that all the way up to getting 30 units of food for one unit of wood twice as fast as when you started

if anything, the player should be allowed to rename their civic center to designate it as the central hub of a specific city, depending on your preference. so, if they wanted, someone playing as the Macedonians could name one of their towns "Alexandria"

perhaps instead of being specifically seen within the LOS of towers, it could be within a certain distance of them, because--realistically--even with a large field of vision, a sentry in a tower would have difficulty discerning exactly what a person looks like at the very edge of their line of sight

i'm glad you think so sometimes i fear my non-frivolous suggestions go unheard

personally, i think that would be far too much complication. it worked with very specific generic units in AOM, but i think it would just make things difficult in 0ad