Atrik

If you compare resource efficiency of archer immortals relative to CS archers, they are the single most OP champ of the game. However, they are still archers, so they take a little more time (you need a lot of them) to really be a problem. From my calculations : immortals archers are way OP, but spears are only slightly weak. Now, because they can switch from one mode to the other, this make them extremely op, because they are archers... that can counter archer's counters : cavs. It's a fun mechanic, and I wish they were more dual weapon units. However their balancing is failed, as they should have instead of being strongest archer of the game (in resource efficiency therm, once again) be weaker, to balance dual weapon. Also idk why archer and melee stance have the same hp, probably transform.js bug or lag if you rescale hp too often but pretty sure it's supposed to handle hp rescales. @real_tabasco_sauce

Just realized that the Seleucids spears actor hold javelins, is it on purpose? Looks a bit weird. https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/src/branch/main/binaries/data/mods/public/art/actors/units/seleucids/infantry_spearman_b.xml

Anyways... Just me thinking now how a framework for balancing unit could be better then using solely gut feelings. Obviously unit relative powers don't define alone, if a unit is broken or not, as utility stats (movement, attack range, attack delay, counter...) aren't taken into account. Melee cavs are considered the most broken over ranged ones even if they aren't as over powered because melee cavs counter everything for example. It does help however describe one component of why one unit feel "broken". In a27 mercs seems very op if you know how to optimize eco for them you can easily have a great army min 11, immortals are extremely op, and champ cavs are out of this world. Which could be predicted comparing stats and thinking of counters.

Idk what you think of as "resource rarity". If you consider that minerals are slower to gather then wood, then consider this : Champ cavs and CS Slingers have in common that they have ~30% of their cost in minerals. Yet it's rarely the case that the stone cost of slinger are viewed to be costly, or scarce. Stone and metal have the same gather rate, so you see now that thinking that metal is making champs so much costlier isn't true at all.

Power Cost Res Efficiency Example Melee Champ cav 4.50 2.20 2.05 Mace spear cav Ranged Champ cav 5.52 2.20 2.51 Pers cav archer Melee Champ inf 4.80 2.20 2.18 Iber sword Melee Merc inf 1.51 0.60 2.52 Carth Melee Merc cav 1.51 0.67 2.27 Carth Ranged Immortal 4.68 1.30 3.60 Pers Melee Immortal 2.55 1.30 1.96 Pers Melee Champ cav Pers/Sele 4.84 2.27 2.14 Pers/Sele I've calculated the resource efficiency out of curiosity for a few more units that i share above. Note that the power number: Is a multiplier of relative power to CS equivalent of a unit. In theory it should predict/indicate how much CS unit (fighting them one after the other) it can defeat before dying. In practice, damage dealing isn't continuous, the CS unit might die at 50% of it's attack animation vs the champ, so it end up being more. Doesn't take into account accuracy for ranged units. Doesn't include any techs at all. Costs also consider all resources as valuable.

They are 4.8x as strong as their cs counterparts but only cost 2.2x. Champs are the cheapest units of the game, relative to their fighting efficiency. Even more so for some special champions, like Pers and Sele champ cavs.... For infantry, its the same ratio but they can't eco, so they don't feel as broken. Also one player in a team game can make them at the expense of letting an ally die but it's much easier for the other team to coordinate and engage a infantry champion army together; while champion cavalry can always pick fights, and ruin the economies of any player very fast. I don't think it's totally bad to have champions being the most resource efficient (/cheapest) units of the game, as long as they get weaknesses. Currently, melee champ cavs counter everything but themselves have no (serious) counters.

What tech do you do last would maybe be more interesting to know. Since as I imagine, SP players mostly play just to build the most developed city possible with no constraint on trying to optimize anything.

I would like to take an example of very nice improvements that emerged in a27: defenses buildings. Now they better balanced in each phase, and in p3, are generally much stronger. Especially forts. However they've been added some weaknesses like easier to capture, and min range for forts, so overall they feel like successfully balanced and fun to me.

x3 was known to work in some a26 com mod version. Champ cavs where countered more like one would expect by spears. If this is too much early on against cs melee cavs, we could instead add a tech with this +50% (+x0.5) dps against cav bonus? Melee cavs are quite strong early game anyways so could be either way.

Would solve the main problem that champ cavs currently can slam into infantry formations, meat-shield, and even melt them by their own, which is prob what most people think is broken right now. Slowing heavy cav movement speed will mean they no longer counter ranged light cavs? Or at least ranged light cavs can escape them pretty easy? Could make sens for realism but this might have a lot of consequences balance wise.

Yes, almost. But the games in which champion cavalry feels the most unfair is when you were active and team-working from early on in the game, that you took out 2 players, but one single enemy was left unchecked, made champ cavs, and now vaporize all your teams armies, even if they are regrouped. Champions cavalry are: Cheap (VERY resource efficient) Strong (EXTREMELY population efficient) Fast (mobility is good both in fights AND on map control) Counter everything (hack dps for melees) Don't have serious counter (Spears champs have x2.5 dps, BUT less base dps, x0.6 hp x0.5 movement speed, most civ require special building.) The accumulation of perks, and lack of any counters is what makes them feel so unbalanced. That being said, I don't think we should over-nerf them. Just give them 1 real weakness as should strong units have, and/or make them a little less cheap.

It's not the same. If your border ally is harassed by camels, you can counter it by your own cav (you need less then camels) and having the speed tech makes a big difference. It's unlike another buff of hp/damage.

@Noob Dude check this if haven't already. I tested with a few players, and it feels rly like great feature that makes micro interesting.

It's the only tech that really feels like usable to 'counter' an enemy p1 start such as camels, but cav spam in general. It allow having the upper hand in p1 cav fights. I wish there were a couple more techs like this actually.

To me it's obvious that it is better to allow players to have easier control over units behavior rather then hardcoding some mitigation logic. The latter might even lead to un-intuitive pathing which the game already have a good deal of.