real_tabasco_sauce

why do you think this changes APM at all. The actions taken are the same. Take for example some cavalry skirmishers encounter spearcav on a head-on collision course. In both 80 meter and 92 meter ranges (even 200 meters if you like), the player will retreat the skirmishers REGARDLESS of when they see each other. That is one "action" if they see each other with one second until collision or four, the actions involved are identical. This patch will not impact the micro required to use cavalry, only the vision range. it will change some things: @Gurken Khan said it will take longer to scout the map, i agree. More actions are needed to scout the map, but the rate is the same. primarily: one must now be a little more careful using cavalry because there is less warning before you encounter spearmen for example. (note that this does not change the "micro" required, as I explained above). also, do not think I want 40 meter vision range. My original patch listed 75 meters, but I kept it at 80 so that less people would shoot it down.

@alre what happened to this nice attitude? you are now vehemently against the proposal.

ok but how does this patch change micro?? its the same actions per minute. If anything it makes infantry better, not cavalry. So it is noob friendly. Noobs might not know why they cannot stop cavalry, why they lose so much. Its because the cavalry see their spearmen long before the spearmen see cavalry. This is not making the learning curve steeper: it is balancing infantry and cavalry vision. A very small change to gameplay. Stop making it something it is not.

? no I said this because you literally said:

as it should be. They are fast, you should be careful not to wander into spearmen. Again, this will not increase the micro required to use cavalry in any way: you still do the same number of clicks!!! The only difference is that you have to react a little bit faster. so you like the lighthouse cavalry? I just feel like once you have a cav army, especially with champions, you basically have fog of war turned off XD. There's no question about where your enemies are.

I still can't find one good reason to not reduce vision of cavalry. here are some reasons to equalize infantry and cavalry vision to 80: general infantry/cavalry balance spearmen more likely to successfully reach or trap cavalry slightly easier for spearcav to chase down ranged cavalry. level playing field for archers versus archer cav (for example in a camel rush) champion cavalry no longer see 96 meters (massive compared to 80, see my pics), slightly easier to defeat. scout towers more relevant overall more surprising and exciting gameplay.

@alre was discussing micro for fighting with horse archers. taking longer, not more micro. Your actions per minute will be the same, whether you queue more waypoints, or scout manually. Most players would not even consider scouting micro to be honest. Micro is usually just handling the details of a fight: retreating weak soldiers to safety, sniping key enemy soldiers, using formations, even dancing if you are toxic lol.

XD. Please, no homing missiles.

a couple of meters, assuming the earth is a perfect sphere. For all practical purposes, this is a negligible difference. I am not reducing all vision range, just cavalry. No this is not a bottomless pit, because I reduced it to 80 meters and no more. I prefer something less for all soldiers, but this is another discussion. Are you just opposed to changing the game? ? no it doesn't mean more micro. It means the same micro in less time. shall I make a poll?

you make a point, thank you. I would honestly say they are more unfriendly to the recipient of a camel/horse archer rush: noobs have an extremely difficult time dealing with camel rushes, often because their own ranged units cannot hit the camels (because the camels see the counter well in advance) That being said, I don't expect this to increase the micro required. After all, the main micro technique is to retreat vulnerable horse archers as needed (and maybe to snipe enemy ranged units). <- these techniques are limited by attack range more so than vision range. the lowered vision range will only change the time you have to respond to a threat.

12 to 16 meters longer to be exact, competing with scout towers and catapults. I would also like to see a reason not to change it.

you are the only one in opposition to my knowledge.

exactly, the same goes for infantry. I bet you would like to escape infantry spearmen, but its very very easy since champion cavalry see farther than an outpost. you literally disagree everywhere, but I still have not seen why

I said it is a contributor. Obviously there are many other reasons. basically cavalry can see their main counter (spearmen) long before the spearmen can see them. Another example: camel rushes are easier to pull off because camels can see infantry archers before infantry archers can see camels.

I don't think enemy health bars should be hidden. It is nice to know what units you have already damaged and its not very friendly to beginners to not see the health bars. I am on board with everything else tho.

I mentioned this elsewhere but I think it deserves it's own topic. Cavalry can see more than infantry in the game because they are sitting on a horse. I understand they are on a vantage point, but 12 meters more is very excessive. Also, vision range is impeded by the same things regardless of height. (hills trees etc) Fog of war represents these obstructions and provides excitement to gameplay. Even if it were realistic (which it really isn't) I think it is problematic for gameplay that cavalry can see more than infantry, because these units are already difficult to kill with their infantry counter, spearmen. lets do some comparisons 1. cavalry versus infantry (citizen soldiers) 92 meters vs 80 meters. this is a substantial difference (12 meters) especially because the area is much larger with increasing radii. 2. champion cavalry versus champion spearmen 96 meters vs 80 meters *notice that champion cav get an additional 4 meters while champion infantry do not get additional vision. 3. Champion cav versus outpost the outpost is unupgraded by the way. I think it is ridiculous that cavalry can see so far to be honest. At best, it is inconsistency, and at worst, it is a serious balancing issue between infantry and cavalry. When people complain that late game cavalry death balls are invincible, this is likely a significant contributor. Luckily, I have already made a simple patch and a mod for a25 to fix this discrepancy: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4744 vision.zip These both make vision ranges for all infantry and cavalry 80 meters. Give it a try if you like.

IIRC space takes you to the last alarm (units fighting)

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4722 +1 hack armor 120 food 100 wood cost (no metal) I consider this a substantial buff, and I think it is great.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWgSzCK6CoFgSdbPiKGmJ4A

now that people have had time to test the Persia changes in RC2, do you all think axe cav should still be buffed? https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4683

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4744#201916 I am not lowering vision of all units. Just lowering cavalry and champion cavalry down to 80 for infantry/cavalry balance.

here are 2 pics for illustration, if you don't want to download the mod. The top is with the mod, and the bottom is without. notice how much more cavalry can see than infantry. If you have ever struggled to kill cavalry armies in the late game, this is a contributing factor.

does this mean u are against changing it? Was A18 vision too small? too large? I was not annoyed by vision inn any of these alphas. Impossible, no. Just slightly more difficult (5 meters in fact). I think not seeing the entire map at once does not make the map any less beautiful. Anyway, you seem to have missed that this is primarily a balance issue. Currently, cavalry can see 12 meters farther than infantry, which is a problem: It is too easy for cavalry units to avoid fights. They move much faster than infantry and can also see infantry before infantry can see them. This is a way to address cavalry death balls in the late game. The reason I lowered vision range (by 5 meters) is to bring more surprise into the game.

more on the vision range change: I made a mod for A25b so that anybody can see how these changes affect gameplay. After briefly testing things myself, it occurred to me that this would be a nerf to ranged units in general. I would say it is an improvement. Let me know what you all think (especially balancers). oops. Here is the mod: vision.zip

realistically, this doesn't make any difference, except that you could see over closer objects like tall grass and bushes. I don't really care about realism in this case: cavalry should have the same vision as infantry. I would give an exception for a dedicated "scout" cavalry in the future.