real_tabasco_sauce

balanced javelins:

progress update on icons: Some "new" icons I edited XD. Handguard (swordsman), raiding cavalry (cavalry axeman), heavy shot (slinger), buttspike (pikeman) from left to right. all that remains to be made are: longer pikes, balanced javelins, scouting tactics (archer cavalry 1), cavalry heavy draw (archer cavalry 2), and husbandry (cavalry swordsman 1). if you are curious about the buttspike, this is the inspiration:

yes, I would agree with this. There will be some fine-tuning needed in the future for Han. I already have a couple ideas, but I think we should all wait for a consensus to be made on what exactly needs changing.

lol what am I supposed to do. Obviously balance changes are agreed upon by many people. I think within the unit specific upgrades proposal, there is an appropriate solution to a couple of @Emperior's issues, namely cav OP and merc cav op. Han balance changes will happen later anyway.

@Frederick_1 I recommend you use a plug in mouse, not wireless. I certainly had issues with wireless mouse input

nice, I will try something like that in the future.

oh wait a minute. No need to draw anything! there are way more than I thought: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/art/textures/ui/session/portraits/technologies/javelin_thong.png

Oh, that would be awesome! There are much easier ones for me to do (ie make a spear by extending the existing arrow) but this one was going to be a lot of work. Thanks!

Ok I'm finding all kinds of nice icons for potential use in unit specific upgrades. https://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/art_source/trunk/art/textures/ui/session/portraits/technologies/jav_thong_mockup.png however: Here is the original online. Is this legal?

Sorry for the giga-necropost, but I was thinking of using some of the icons in this thread and also from the below topic for icons in the "unit specific upgrades" branch of the community mod. What is the ideal size for tech icons? (in pixels I guess)

Ok, I went ahead and made a merge request for the 4 new team bonuses.

Yes, and it also makes for horrendous gameplay

My only concern is stacking the speedy skirms/slingers team bonus for brits with other speed buffs like Viriato from ibers. That would make their skirms 15 m/s which is comparable to cavalry.

Ah good point, yeah it makes sense to limit this to infantry. Done. This could be a team bonus. Maybe just slingers and javelins? thoughts on this for britons?

In general, I think we should avoid a strict counter system like in AOE. Instead, 0ad has generally allowed the natural stats of different units to result in some units countering others depending on the context. ie archers beat skirmishers when range is important. I guess an exception to this is the cavalry damage multiplier. i've been thinking about a crush armor rework for a while now. Overall, it should be a reduction with some units having more or less than others, but then one would have to adjust slingers for example as necessary. I think something like this would be done after the current balancing efforts (like how I postponed the unit specific upgrades). As for area of effect damage, I would say it doesn't belong on chariots since they are currently ranged units only. I think there was some work done on giving eles an area of effect attack, but I am not sure how easy this would be to add to the mod. @Adeimantos in terms of unit differentiation (unit roles) what do you think of my unit specific upgrades idea? these upgrades are already in my fork of the community mod: https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/tree/unit_upgrades the discussion on these upgrades is below.

This could be a team bonus. Maybe just slingers and javelins? I like this as a civ specific bonus. One could call it "hill forts." a new briton unique tech would good too. Researched from the cc during phase 2 perhaps? Maybe an increase in damage for certain unit types, maybe increased acceleration and/or move speed at the cost of armor?

Hi @Darkcity thanks for the feedback! I was thinking 50% would be good since it would have a significant effect on gameplay, but 20% or 25% is a safer option. My thoughts are this: if we test the bonus at 50%, we can always bring it down to 30% or 25% as needed. But if we test the bonus at 25% it might not be very interesting for gameplay and then I bet people won't try it out. Also: for some reason, with 50% reduction in train time, infantry train in 7->5 seconds, and cavalry from 11->7 seconds. It's not 50% interestingly so its not as strong as expected XD. I'm wondering if there is some other factor at work. It is a significant difference, however.

ok 3 team bonuses down: https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/commit/9c73d5e1cd3e8c6b6c5a28431982c27e04066934 for carthage perhaps: -50% mercentary train time. in the repository now.

Well, I think athens is pretty good now: "democracy" CC techs (including phase up) -50% research time -30% cost. Carthage could maybe be a more impactful trade bonus, potentially: cheaper, faster training traders, markets too maybe. I think kush is acceptable (maybe just an improvement like I did for seles), which really leaves brits, Han, and probably mauryans.

I like the idea for trade, maybe this is something I could work on later for the community mod. If we can get an idea for britons, I could go ahead and make a merge request for the team bonuses? Any others that are way too weak?

@chrstgtr i'm not sure how well that would go down as a team bonus. As for carry capacity, the minimal game impact was my concern as well, so thats why I think the barracks/stable cost could be good for pers. I think for trade to be important there may need to changes to the trading system as a whole. Currently Persia has a civ bonus of +25% trade gain and a team bonus of +15 percent trade gain, and still trade is not the reason to play Persia. Replacing the +15% team bonus with something else impactful won't change the usage of trade.

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/commit/0590b62be8e473c70ad05b47070b5bc09e52b440 I am thinking for persia: +10% hp for ranged cavalry, kind of like the spartan bonus. other possibilities: cavalry 2X carry capacity (20 food -> 40) stables and barracks discount? call it "training regimes." I like this last one the best. Still no ideas for britons

I am wondering if the correct move is to nerf swordcav's pierce armor a little. They shouldn't be able to tank fire from the CC so easily as spear cavalry, right? I think with this change, p1 swordcav will be pretty well balanced (not significantly better than a skirmcav rush). My only concern would be sword cavalry's effectiveness later in the game. (unit specific upgrades again here could fix the latter issue)

So far I haven't made any nerfs for Han, but I can certainly see the issues you mention @hamdich. In addition, I think crossbows are a little bit overtuned, they probably need at least slower prepare time. I agree it is difficult to balance sword cavalry in p1, it may be the best choice to move them out of p1. As for acceleration and spear cavalry, I see the concern about spear cavalry having a hard time chasing. The first thing to note is that spear cavalry have 2 components that make chasing difficult: 1) stopping to attack and having to accelerate and 2) prepare time. Prepare time is a massive contributor because the spear cavalry must be stationary during prepare time. I actually have what I think is a nice solution to this, if people are interested. among my list of "unit specific upgrades" (see attached discussion) are 2 upgrades for spear cavalry: 1) Horse Racing: increased movement speed and much higher acceleration (phase 2) 2) Lancing tactics: increased pierce damage and decreased smaller prepare time. after testing, these changes made spear cavalry much more effective when chasing enemy cavalry, and the distinction is that these upgrades are unique to spear cavalry, so the upgrades act to differentiate spear cav nicely. I have not yet made a merge request for these upgrades (https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/tree/unit_upgrades), but I think they should be added to the community mod after balance changes and team bonus changes.

I imagine this will not be ready before the next release of the community mod, but I would like to do an update to team bonuses. I have started the project but not yet uploaded to Gitlab. The goal is to implement strong, generally applicable bonuses that allow for different gameplay options depending on a team's civ matchup. 1. Athens: -15% ship cost -> "Democracy" Civic centers -50% technology research time and -30% cost. 2. Seleucids: Civic centers -20% resources cost -> -20% resource and -20% build time. I need ideas for Britons, Persians, and Han first. Other team bonus ideas are welcome.