Emacz

You can still check out Classical AEA... they actually should move a little faster IMO since they had 0 armor.... although most skirmishers had zero resistance. But helots have less HP, less dmg and dont get forge techs in CWA, but they are cheap to produce and have civilian gather rates (which are better than cs)

I was trying to combine something we talked about in pm with the current game set up. I forget what game it was but if I recall correctly you said you start with a unit, you send the unit to the barracks and train it as either a swordman, spearman, archer etc? So when units are first created they should be identical health/resistances etc.. right? Then you train it to be an archer and it gets more dmg via the bow, and maybe a little extra amor than a regular unit ie civilian... where as if you want a peltast it would be equipped with a pelta and little to no armor. But a hoplite would have full , the shield (aspis) which would slow it down. But a roman legionaries shield (scutum) would be even heavier, slowing them down more. But then a hoplite would wear more armor overall/plus the fact that a spear is more cumbersome than a sword, and the hoplite ends up being slower than the legionary.

You kinda could. They way I invivision it is a low kit unit would have the same actor for all 3 ranks…. Then if you get a tech for spearman increased body armor say, all spearman would “promote” they would have to go back to rank 1, but then the “new” unit would have a new actor…. So you may need 9 templates just for that civ’s units if you have 3 “kit” upgrades.

may even take it a step further, custCWA chart - Sheet10.pdfomize the weapons too (not the graphics though, just the stats, length, speed etc) based on this chart, if you find it fairly accurate.

correct, and all ranking up does for you is give you a little bit more health and a little bit more melee attack or range accuarcy.

@OutisI was just using spearman as an example, but yes it would be for each melee unit... And what I would do for techs, with the help of you and @Thalatta over time is, I would have one armor one for spearman, swordman, pikeman, clubmen, axeman. So basicaly your unit starts off with "no armor" just a shield and weapon... and then you decide which ones you want to give which units, at a loss of speed... your gear or "kit" wouldnt look different as you ranked up... instead if you got a tech it would change the appearance of gear.

Could also get rid of some of the forge techs for shields... and the armor ones could be based on which civs used what types of armors. One for melee and one for ranged... a little more custimisation, and diversity. With hopefully "history" behind most of the units, techs, etc and why some civs have but others don't....

tell me if you think I’m crazy…. I was gonna lower all melee armor to 1/1/1..then set movement speed based on weapons, swords/maces first, then axes, then spear than pike. Then I was gonna differentiate “spearman” with a mixin based off of the type of shield they used…. I’ve played around with it for javelneers. I have the peltast, the caetra, the Parma, Celtic shield and noba shield. Then like @wowgetoffyourcellphone did with Thebes mod I can add a "history" which will give a little info on all the different shields, make things a little more educational and a lot more diverse. @Thalatta @Outis thoughts?

Thanks to @Atrik Maury Ele archers can now shoot multiple arrows as they rank up! Sneak peak at volley attack which will be released next alpha

Yes and from what I read later in their history Spartans relied more on Perioikoi as they couldn’t maintain the same spartiates numbers. So wanted to balance out a little. And helots aren’t exactly “soldiers” they can’t promote, they don’t receive techs….. they are basically cheap bodies to offer a little “missile” action. again maybe the Perioikoi reduced train time isn’t needed. Need more games to sorta see how it works out.

Ok yeah, that would work… they could get an attack bonus like city states as part of their grouping… and then as they phase up they get additional attack bonuses that don’t happen to other civs. But they won’t have some of the protection, auras that other units have. I can put place holders in for all of this… but will take lots of play time to figure out the right balances. And I can’t really do that by playing against myself any volunteers to play/test mp with me?!??

So again, they aren’t restricted. They are stronger than regular champ spearman, especially once they are fully promoted. But when you go p2, they take an additional 10% train time. When you go p3, they take an additional 15% on top of that. And a few of their techs add additional train time. So unless you play death match with cheats, or a game for hours it’s harder to replenish/mass them. On the othetide of the equation Perioikoi take 10% less train time in p2 and an additional 10% less p3… so you can basically train 3 periokio in the time it takes to train one spartiates.

Yes, BUT in our mod "citizen soldiers" are not as good at eco as civilians.... Sparta doesnt have civlians... their Helots have the same gather rates as civilians but are worse fighters than normal "CS" We have the aura based ones... I need to think of how it could work for units that are NOT know for formation, ie the tribal warriors. Auras need another unit to trigger the aura... So phlanx for example only takes effect if there is another unit with it close by,... even though it really should be you need at least X amount for it to trigger... I dont know how to do that yeah, so basically spartiates take longer and longer to train as you progress, so they are harder to reinforce so you need at least more Peiroikois. We actually limit neomades for now, cause they are 0 pop... they are helots who eventually promote and they are weaker than all CS but they don't take up pop... but I may change that a little since that was back when Helots were 0 pop.

Love all this! Thank you, keep it coming Although I guess if it's too much too soon I'll probably miss parts and need to ask again Not sure about this. What would be great if made correctly: tribal societies have units which are strong when fighting one to one, but no or very little formation bonuses, whereas infantry from city-states, republics etc have better formation bonuses in such a way bigger formations are either equally matched or favor city-states and republics This would be nice, I need to think about if there is a way to do that... We do have a small bonus for Testudo, and Phalanx formations.. even though formations don't really work. So similar to Greek city states, they could get a dmg bonus, but not have any "formation" bonus... but currently the only civs that have the formation bonuses are hoplite civs for phalanx, a couple other specific champ situations, and roman legionnaires/champ swords for Testudo. @Thalatta yes, the cheaper wooden builds can be restricted... and then mobilization could be one of the other tribal bonuses. Also we keep referring to it as hoplite tradition, but yes I did rename it to hoplite reforms based on your Spartan post. Im playing around with colonies for Sparta, so that could be added to all. Also I am removing the territory influence bonus from CC on phases ups for city states... Sparta doesnt have the theater.. and I could even remove tettirory bonus from theater and give it more of a "moral/efficiency" bonus Sparta's farms are "food" drop sites, so you don't necessarily need to have them next to a "farmstead" My only problem with giving sparta another pop penalty is Im OCD and if its 10% already, that is 90, 180, 270 etc.... Also shouldn't it really be Thebes that is the smallest?

Maybe read the discussion:) we are trying to figure out what they will do. Just kinda different types of civs that have things in common. And eventually it will be more clear tribals are better/most suited for X, city states are better/most suited for Y

Spartans have a further limit on their champions which have excellent stats already. It does not have to be a hard limit, one idea is to have it as a percentage of current population. we actually did the opposite. There is no restriction on their champs… yes they are strong…. But champs can’t gather resources to produce more champs you can only train 3 helots per every champ…. Although you can train up to 10 without. i dont know how to do a percentage of population….. we also have it so spartiates take longer and longer to train as you phase up and tech up. So you need to mix in more helots and Perioikoi

In one of our versions we had a bonus where CS for Brit’s/gauls and more HP. Cause where they bigger/fiercer in stature say compared to the Romans? maybe I’m just thinking too much American dramatized Vikings on TV but could do something similar if it could fit for the tribes. All melee + 25 health or something.

Well I removed it for Sparta… but their military techs are a little stronger than the average, so by the time you get p3 full techs, they are still fully capable of fighting without it. For example we could start with city states -10% pop bonus. + 10% infantry attack (none of them really had great cavalry) no will to fight tech. although I still think if give Sparta a little something to be a little stronger at least infantry wise. Unfortunately we have touched the navy and almost never play on water maps. That should definitely be Athens strength over Sparta.

Yeah, actually we renamed it hoplite reforms. and I am now OK with the the of them getting the -10% pop bonus… even though Athens was maybe 2 to 3 times the size of Thebes… all 3 were by far the smallest of the 16 factions. Also I like maybe none of them having Will to fight, but stronger militiaty techs or something?

Well generally barracks cost 200 wood 100 stone for most civs... but the tribal ones now cost 300 wood only, 20% faster build time but 20% less health and capture points.... similar to temples, forges, all of those things are wood only.

So I like this, Sparta already has the -10% pop penalty... so it should apply to Thebes and Athens? Then Sparta may be strongest out of 3... Im tornn on citizens gather/military... on one hand sparta wasnt very eco driven right? on the other we use some melee bonus for some of the tribes as well... So we will definitely have to clean things up. All the city states have hoplite tradition

Yeah, I made most of their buildings cost wood, similar to the tech that already existed for "celts" but I towers, forts, and ccs are exempt

Which civs would fall into this category?

Not sure how many times I have asked, suggested you play Classical again, but yes we have them as teritory roots.....

Ok, I’ll start with either city states or tribes. would it be safe to say in general all tribal buildings are mostly wood? some other ideas on what they may all have in common?