BreakfastBurrito_007

Ok well it seems Apple did a cool thing and removed SVN from the most recent OS. It seems that it is still possible but it will probably take me until RC3 is released to do it lol. Could you guys just give a run-down of how the game went balance-wise? -GGs

I am worried that only 1 or 2 of us will have the right version. I also suspect that very few of us have played any multiplayer RC2. I think our testing today will be more successful if we just use RC2.

We should call it "The Bush" end of story XD

Are you guys willing to play on RC2 Tomorrow? My thinking is it will be easier to install and we have a higher likelihood of a bigger TG. Also, there are many changes affecting balance even just in RC2, that it would be worthwhile to try it to assess what the balance issues could be. CET is Central European Time, for me it converts to 10 AM Pacific Time.

Thats great to hear. To be frank, the pathfinding and unit responsiveness from a24 was a lot more tiresome than getting owned by Rauls' micro every game of a23.

If micro and formations become more important you can consider me killed lol.

I can make it. Are we testing RC2 or should we try to build a more recent version ourselves?

I think many of the old players that had the patience to stick through the peak ddos era (through July-December) last year, finally gave up upon seeing what the gameplay of a24 was like. My hope is that some of those players will be impressed enough by alpha 25 to come back. A24 games are by and large predictable among other things, and some excitement and skill depth can attract more players to 1v1s and TGs on multiplayer.

Ah, well that explains a lot. It seems when I set them to violent and just walk the formation without the attack order, they charge after they reach the move order destination. Could you imagine using skiritai like this? :O

@Yekaterina I went into single player for RC2 and tried doing the charge vs AI, but I could not seem to make it happen. Will formations be required to use the charge mechanic?

I am wondering if damage buff in the 5-10% range for archers and slingers, combined with proper adjustments to run speed for things that would otherwise be problematic is enough? Is there an RC3 or would I need to figure out a build to test the charging mechanic?

I have played fairly consistently over the past year and I observed a few big things that lead to loss of many long term players as well as less retention of new players. DDOS epidemic which used to impact nearly every game (not as bad now) issues with alpha 24 that made it less exciting and lowered the skill ceiling such as unit movement, building strength/ turtling, extremely long games, OP archers and eles and metal costs/availability. Many players (including myself) have less fun on an average a24 game than on an a23 game.

I like the upgrade system as it has been implemented and suggested before, but I feel that it would not make the gameplay better in this case. I like the ship classes and roles you gave, but I think these are fine being trained straight from the dock rather than all starting at "light". The main problem that I can find off the bat is the need to upgrade those ships and wait for the upgrade while you are under attack from other ships.

Reminds me of that old Italian fellow with the different sized metal balls.

@Yekaterina I think one of the benefits that the charging feature could supply would be adding depth and skill to the battle micromanagement. Do you think the charging feature (if its problems get worked out) will make ranged units obsolete, or could they become a powerful units that usually need some protection from melee attacks? If it eventually works well, then it could certainly make melee units mega-op given the damage/speed/attack rate/ health that they currently have. Because the melee/ranged balance has been done all this time without the inclusion of a charge mechanic for melee units, that means the addition of such a feature will require a revisit of the ranged/ melee balance. I am not sure how things will go of course, but if ranged units die become obsolete from dying too fast, then I would advocate for adding some damage across the board for ranged units. My thinking is that this will make them valuable enough to make, yet vulnerable enough to melee charges to not make up the bulk of an army. This is probably already being considered, but perhaps heavier armored units should gain less speed from walk speed to charge speed, like pikemen. Perhaps this is also a mechanic that could help make a gameplay distinction between lancer cavalry and spear cavalry.

@azayrahmad Sorry for the misunderstanding about the video. Have these features (like charging) been added to a more recent RC? If so I would definitely want to know where to go download that to try them out. I downloaded the Release Candidate 25808 version and I have not found a more recent one to try.

@azayrahmad I see the point your video makes, thanks for sharing it. It is true that pikes+ skirmishers are a powerful combination. However, I am unsure what gave those pikemen such high speed? was it a charge mechanic? Also it is worth noting that in each situation, all of the damage of the red army groups was focused on the pikes, allowing the high dps of the skirms to come into effect. Most players would recognize this problem and attempt to kill the skirmishers first, and then exploit the limited mobility of the pikes to kill them. For example, in Battle #1 the archers should have been told to attack the skirmishers, and then move on to the pikemen. Because the archers did not do this, the skirms were able to kill the spears, and then the pikes were able to move on to the archers. @LetswaveaBook testing showed rank 1 swords to be able to beat rank 2 pikes, it is a good indicator of how inferior pikes are in direct engagements with other melee units, including spears. What do you guys think about the +40% hp to pikes hero for ptol? I think it is quite powerful and I would be in favor of reducing the range of effect to make organization with the pikes more important and less easy.

@alre Don't skirmishers do more damage?

Keep in mind that pikemen are very good against archers and are very helpful in masses. In a25 it is expected that archers will be less OP and people will use slingers and skirmishers more often. Skirmishers are better than archers versus pikes, so my guess is that pikes will not seem as indestructible in a25. Perhaps adjusting the +40% ptol hero bonus is a good idea, but otherwise I don't think general pikes are mega-op.

Indeed, so for realism it would probably need to be like a 180 degree angle from the front to back on the right side, then we would probably need a range indicator. This would mean that cav archers seeking to circle an army and continuously launch arrows would need to do so clockwise, and thus have a more predictable path if the defender knows this information. This is all quite complicated for non-chariot units, so I think it is a good thing to try chariots first. As for the Parthian shot, I totally should have remembered this from the history books!

@Yekaterina@Dragonoar I was just trying to say that you can not choose your target if you are moving while shooting from horses/chariots. Sorry for the confusion.

That makes sense. This will probably make chariots more fun to use. It is probably also more balance-risk to enable this for non-chariot units.

@Yekaterina I was wondering if it is possible to limit the shooting range for moving, non-chariot ranged units to the front 180 degrees? Reasons: no ones back is that flexible allows melee cav to chase gives the mechanic a weak side, so they should go toward or alongside an enemy but not away. This way they wont behave quite like siege towers.

Keep in mind that as it exists now, the mechanic does not operate on a volley basis (neither does anything in 0ad). You can't even choose what target to attack with the mouse. As for the first shot being more important, do you mean in real life, in 0ad, or in most RTS games? As far as I know, the first shot only matters in 0ad if you hope to take out a high value target quickly. Ideally there would still be advantages to stationary shooting from horses and it should probably make more dps overall.

It is true that horse archers are more powerful than regular archers, and adding this mechanic to them will make them more powerful. However, it is undeniable that there is potential added value for gameplay as well as realism. Which brings me to Dragonoar's point below. Horse riding takes balance and it is my guess that it is harder to shoot at the same rate as when you are stationary. Also I think bigger bows are stronger (provided other construction qualities are constant), and would tend to shoot farther, so it makes sense in general that horse archers should have shorter range. This is not a balance problem since horse archers are faster than regular archers. I feel going for a 1.5x multiplier to attack repeat time and an accuracy nerf while moving should be enough to balance the "shooting while moving" aspect. @Player of 0AD I know that horse archers are pretty OP in a24 and likely a25, but doing this is a way to fix them in the long term. The goal is to make the unit more distinct in usage, and to add skill depth to the unit. We are fortunate that we can add some realism while helping gameplay. I initially wanted to consider this mechanic for skirmisher cavalry but I am not so sure now...