BreakfastBurrito_007

Interestingly enough, iber are one of the most capable cav civs in a24, among pers seles and gauls. Skirm cav champs are powerful vs everything and can take out buildings. If you bulk the army with plenty of spearcav and skirmcav it is a deadly combo, since it is much easier to keep the fire-cav champs alive. Indibil hero makes all units cheaper and you can reliably keep him alive all game, every game. However Ibers lack a mega-good cavalry hero like pers or seles Ibers lack a few small upgrades for stable (not a big deal) Ibers have a limited selection of CS cavs: just skirm and spear Ibers don't have extra 20 pop like pers do and they don't have archer cavs like sele or pers. Conclusion: Seles are only a good cav civ because of archer cavs+hero I think seleucids should definitely get a spearcav :I. I would like to see seles get a less spammy option for cav.

It is true. There are not really that many civs that have mercenaries, and this could create more problems than it solves. I suppose, in the meantime rushing is going to be between cavalry and women like always. At least we have some ideas for some changes, we will see how mercenaries are in a25 but my expectation is that they will still be bad. At the moment, mercenaries are awkward primarily because of the high cost that is not justified by their power. I would look to the skiritai commandos for a basis for the cost of mercs, they are positively regarded by most 0ad players and I think they are the only good example of a unit that accurately falls between champion and CS.

@LetswaveaBookWell the point of the discussion was to explore the civ diversification/strategy diversification benefits of having mercenaries in p1. Right now (with the mod) they are only in p1 in an un-usable state because they are simply more expensive, non-economic citizen soldiers. I feel the enabling tech does not limit merc usage later in the game either, as one's ability to foot the bill for the metal cost only increases with time/phase/population (until availability runs out). What is your main reason not to allow mercenaries in p1? Does anyone agree with me that mercs should be rank 3 and cost similar to skiritai but shifted to metal somewhat, and also available at all ages after a 300 metal upgrade from barracks? This is a much simpler setup than previous proposals. 300 metal upgrade because in p1 you should still have to mine some metal to get your first mercs. I feel that this would bring a true turtle/boom/rush balance spectrum to 0ad. In a 23 we had boom and a little bit of rush. In a24 we have just boom. In a25 we could have rush or boom or turtle and everything in between. Having this diversity is much better than enabling one merc strategy (the p2 rush with mercs).

I think it is better to avoid designing mercenaries in p1 and p2 to lend themselves to one type of merc rush strategy. If we can give a versatile, powerful, but that goes against the booming (wood/food) instinct, then it can be used in a great number of strategies during p1, p2, and beyond.

@LetswaveaBook The main reason for the upgrade to enable mercs was to prevent the metal spam. If you want mercs you should have to put some people on metal. I feel this is a better solution than the super long training time, because the time goes from the time to wait for training to the time waiting to get enough metal. If the upgrade costs 200 metal, then you must divert some wood/food eco to get mercs. Another thing: for this p1 merc option to be viable, mercenaries should be rank 2 by default. I feel this is the only way to justify getting them in p1, since without it they are just too expensive and no better than standard CS. "expertise in war" could make them train faster available in p2, train time goes from 1xCS to .5xCS. A merc rush should be able to defeat someone who just has a mix of women and CS in their base. I think women sniping is a bit shallow as the only way to rush, and it would be nice if a well planned merc rush could also threaten larger groups of CS unless they have gone to the expense to build plenty of defenses. I would say that it would be cool if mercs were rank 3 by default and priced similarly to skiritai, except with a cost shifted to metal a bit: -10 wood +5 metal -10 food +5 metal. Cavalry add 30 food and 10 metal to this. If this is available in p1, then players will need to be make protections while booming on CS.

I have taken a quick look at the mod and there are some issues I noticed. mercs are still too weak for their metal cost. I think they should start at rank 2. If they come out at rank 1 after such a long time to train them and being expensive, then they are still underpowered. No upgrade to enable mercs. I know that you did not say it would be in the mod, but if you add it I think it should be 250 food, 100 wood, 100 metal. Mercs' utility in p1 hinges on them being able to beat CS. So I think it is important to be able to train them quickly even from the beginning, rather, the time delay could be found from the research time for the "enable mercs" upgrade. If the mercenaries train fast, then the time the barracks isn't making eco units is reduced, I think that 48s for inf and 64s for cav is too much, I think training the same speed as CS is preferable in p1 and then the "expertise in war" should reduce train time from there.

WOW this looks like a great mod! @Dizaka@LetswaveaBook I think we ought to make a TG later today and try it out!

elephant archers are already quite overpowered especially if you consider that archers as a class are OP. Just use them like any other archer, try to get like 20-30 or more of them before fighting and you will see how OP they are. They have more damage, more hp than all archers and these increase as they rank up, they are large targets, so their only downside is people recognising how powerful they are and focusing them down before you are able to mass them. I would be a proponent of making archer eles have a metal cost again.

Wait, so the -35% metal cost does exist? If this is in the game there is no way we can balance mercenaries. because either they are too expensive or dirt cheap (with that hero)

often, when using cavalry you use the spearcav as hitpoint boosters for your whole group, they are effective and serve to extend the lifetime of your sword cav. I am not sure, but I think they have more armor. The difference in melee cav roles is important because it depends on what you want your cav to be doing, also it provides some choice and strategy and allows the game to be both economic and strategic. When fighting with cavalry, it does matter what units you have and how you use them. TLDR: the same reason we have different ranged inf.

@LetswaveaBook I think they eliminated that hero bonus (if you are talking about "-35% metal cost for mercenaries"). Otherwise people would actually be getting mercs with Carthage lol. Mercs are pretty bad in a24, and I think the best way to balance mercs would be to give them the same cost/power setup as skiritai, except they can't gather res. Either that or metal mines could be doubled in value, 5000 to 10000. Iber---> Indibil (all units 15% cheaper) is one of the best heroes because you can just keep him in a fort, and is very easy to keep him from dying and in the fort he can still give his bonus. This (along with 90 food 45 wood skim cav if ur double iber on one team) is what makes iber cav so good, it is also very easy to keep the iber champions alive and with indibil they only cost 85 metal. If the skirmisher discount civ bonus applied to champ skirm cav like it already does for CS skirm cav, this would be mad OP.

Hmm, I downloaded the original version of this mod a while ago, and installed it successfully. I tried to install the newest version, but now I seem to be unable to uninstall any mods or install any new ones. I tried what worked earlier, just re-compressing just the .json file for the new mod and installing it by "opening with 0ad". Earlier I had heard that you need to delete old versions before installing new ones, so I deleted all the mod related files I could find. To my dismay, I was unable to alter the mod situation in my 0ad. I went to the 0ad contents folder and found data>mods>mod.zip and there was nothing else there. I admit that I have been basically guessing at what to do at this point. Is there a specific procedure to install this mod on Mac OS? Also has the mod affected archers being OP in 4v4s, or has this mod been found to have no effects on that? Solution: ok, so my brother "RKTROB" tried using the terminal to manually delete the old mod versions which finally cleared the mod downloads. Then he used the terminal again to import the whole uncompressed folder into the mod directory and this worked.

I wish seleucids had a melee CS (sword, spear, or axe) cavalry, it is so awkward to use their cavalry unless you mindlessly spam archer cav. If seles had this, they would probably be my favorite civ. I am one to hope they get one in a25 :D.

I have my worries about this too, I think it is essential to increase the amount of metal available to players on average. I think replacing the little stone mines with metal mines would be fine. Another option would be to increase the capacity of large metal mines from 5000 to 10000. I feel 60 metal is too high for mercenaries especially if they only come out as advanced rather than veteran, but that also trade could be used to abuse the low total cost. I would be in favor of making mercenaries be 40 metal for inf and 50 metal for cav, and then the other resources adding up to 60 for inf or 60+50 food for cav. Mercs would also starting in advanced rank. I think having a still metal intensive, but more distributed cost, makes them both less spammable from starting metal in p1 and more attainable throughout the game. Overall, I think this cost is best to put them in the suitable role. Unfortunately, it seems the momentum is with doubling down on mercs costing only metal. If more people read this and are in agreement, then perhaps we could eventually test this cost setup combined with the p1 upgrade for the barracks in a mod.

I think one of the changes of https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3699 (as I understand) is the new training times for mercs are .5 the training times for their corresponding CS type, which I think comes out close to the value you suggested. Do you think making the tech cost 200 food 100 wood 100 metal is a good way to prevent merc spam with starting res from being a default strategy? The extra feature of the tech you mentioned are potentially nice, but would probably complicate the discussion about this feature a bit too much. If someone makes a mod with these features, then we could try a 4v4 and determine if the p1 mercs need further adjusting. If they do, we could include one of the smaller extra bonuses you mentioned for this. If someone is interested enough to make a mod, it should definitely include https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3699 in it, since this seems likely to be implemented in a25, and is the cost/power balance considered in this topic.

From the (a24) games I have seen/played people usually linger in p1 until they are between 8:30 and 11 minutes. About a minute longer than it was in a23. P2 usually comes when food/wood production is fast enough to shrug off the 500 food 500 wood cost of p2. My thinking is that earlier (3-6 minute) merc rushes could be done using 5-10 mercs (changing back to eco after this rush would be a bit like a dark age rush to eco transition from AoE2). Later rushes (like 6-9 minutes) would be on a range between harassment and full attack and on a range of merc investments (are you full mercs or only 20% mercs?).

Example: Ptol skirmisher mercenaries are a good example. starting metal is a good issue and I am glad you brought it up. 300 metal spam is definitely a problem, considering this would enable 5 mercs to be made as soon as one finishes a barracks. I think it would be reasonable to have a 200 food 100 wood 100 metal (maybe changed to same cost as fertility festival) upgrade at barrack called "diplomacy" that enables mercenaries for the rest of the game, but in p1(as we discussed before) only certain mercs are available (1 or 2) not the whole selection. I think this could make it economically too awkward (need to afford barracks + 'diplomacy'+ miners to get metal+regular food/wood eco) to start a game by making a barracks within 40 seconds and instantly training as many mercs as possible, but that way it could remain an outlandish and usually unsuccessful strategy. A standard merc rush should not be seen before minutes 3-4 which is pretty reasonable from a rush standpoint and a spam standpoint, this is enough time for players to choose their plan and not be overwhelmed by mercs. The benefits of "diplomacy" tech to this mechanic would be that you will have great challenges to do a merc rush with only starting res. Because of the metal and food and wood cost of the tech: A 300 metal spam rush is turned into 30 seconds later and 200 metal spam merc rush due to the metal cost of tech an opportunity cost of food and wood (not enough wood for houses and men after buying barracks and upgrade, not enough food for usual rate of women production). Ideally there would be enough starting metal to help a merc rush, but only significant if there is enough eco to provide the extra metal, which can only come after producing a certain number of CS and women. greater inability to get eco upgrades I think this would prevent spam at the start and also make the merc rush a more nuanced mechanic rather than a gimmick at the beginning of the game like you said. Tell me what you think. @Dizaka what do you think of the upgrade timing/cost/research location

Hmm, I see. Perhaps after p1 the civs with mercs go from being able to train only 1 type or 2 types to being able to train their whole selection of mercs? I think archery tradition should be moved to p3 anyway. Along with the inclusion of p2 champs for another, potentially overlapping batch of civs, this could make p2 more interesting and less formulated as a way to go p3 fastest. @Dizaka@LetswaveaBookDo we agree that capturable buildings for mercs are a little too random to be put in the general game, but could be an add on feature in game setup? Also @LetswaveaBook do you have issues with limited merc options from barracks in p1? or were you just saying they should be more diverse in p2? Remember, most civs with p1 mercs would only have the 1 merc option, maybe 1 or 2 civs have 2 options. It would not be moving all merc options for each civ to p1. Also, p2 champs will probably, hopefully return for some civs in a25 (I have heard positivity feeling about this).

Ok, the way you say it. It certainly does make sense as an optional extra add on for gameplay, like regicide or relics. The main thing I set out to discuss was whether mercs, balanced as they are in a25, could be available in varying amounts of selection in p1 in the barracks for civs that have mercs. And also whether this would help or hurt the general gameplay in p1.

Does each player get one that is close to their base to capture? or can a player find one and then get a sudden luck-based power spike? What are the main benefits to the gameplay of making mercenaries trainable from gaia buildings which can be captured? I don't see any problems with this as a separate game modification like relics, but I don't think I would like it as a standard feature.

@chrstgtr@Palaiologos@Dizaka@faction02 @ValihrAnt @borg- do you think this would be broken/frustrating or fun/varied? Also do you agree that it would help with booming=turtling and civ differentiation?

Yea. I was thinking for example: iber should probably not have this option since they have no mercs at the other phases and already have great defense. And then also britons have dogs and skirm cav combo, which are themselves a unique kind of rush.

@Thorfinn the Shallow Minded It is more a gameplay feature than a historical accuracy feature. The point is to give players more lethal options in p1 that enable them to attack/beat enemy eco in more ways than just going after women. I think the feature would combine nicely with the existing ways to rush, including CS, cavalry, building, outpost. If this is implemented alongside the planned mercenary changes and nerfs to building arrows and palisades, and the reduction in rotation speed for units, then a25 could have a great variation in game progression, with each player potentially taking different feasible strategies with different amounts of defenses, mercenaries/cav for offense, and citizen soldiers/women for eco power.

@Lion.Kanzen This is an option indeed, but it gives me some painful AoE3 flashbacks lol. I did not like so much the heavy interaction with Gaia in that game, for treasures, trade route, hero tricks etc. Would the building be destroyable? could you get territory root from it? Is there one for each player? Are they defended by Gaia soldiers? My main worry with the capturable building method is forcing the player to either go with no mercs, or dedicate for a bit. In my opinion there is also too much chance, depending on if they can find the building quickly or not. Allowing training from barracks means that player can choose eco units (CS) or mercs in varying amounts at varying times from that barracks, perhaps while still training women from cc. I think training from barracks is good because it allows players to know their options at the start of a match and formulate and adjust a plan from then on. Also, players may want to combine different kinds of p1 aggression like building rushes, merc rushes, CS rushes, cav rushes, and not "buy into" one particular kind (even if the cost is idle time from CS to capture building). I think it adds too much randomness to the game, it is a similar reason people don't always want to play with relics.

In addition, you can still get the farming and lumber upgrades without going to mine more metal.