Sundiata

@elexis Shieldwolf23's and my own ideas are just that. Possible ideas/visions for the future of 0AD. Neither of us expect them to be implemented. That's not how it was supposed to come over at least. They were just examples. I won't argue the content of your reply, but I'm sure you knew shieldwolf knows that 0AD is open-source and he can create his own game if he likes. Neither of us are coding-wizards like you, and I'm sure you know that as well. This comment makes me sad, and is exactly the type of comment you don't want to see from your fans/player base. @WhiteTreePaladin About the lower quality maps thing, I also think it's an issue. They don't all need to be removed. The ones that can be updated should be updated using the best maps as a benchmark. I also think those totally unrealistic/unnatural looking maps should preferably be moved to a "fantasy map" section in my opinion.

@balduin Yeah, they were known to use poisoned arrows. It could be one of the ranged techs... @Lion.Kanzen The crown on the right looks like the crown sometimes worn by the winged goddess Isis. Golden wings of a vulture. Princesses or Queens could possibly wear it in emulation of the Goddess. Isis in a relief from Meroe: Notice the winged serpent symbol on top. This is one of the symbols on the Egyptian shield-placeholders in Kush. A good use of existing placeholders, it seems

As far as the casual and competitive game-modes goes, it's just an idea to help relieve the unsolvable difference of interest regarding play styles. Some people want an "updated AoE", streamlined and straightforward. This could be 0AD classic. Other people are much more ambitious in what they want. As @shieldwolf23 said, a mix between a (simplified) city-managment and RTS. 0AD is the best platform to develop such an idea. Imagine a Real Time Total War with elements of Anno in 0AD. Big cities and epic battles on giant maps, and it's not turn-based, but real time... That's revolutionary. It's basically what "everybody" wants, but hasn't been achieved by any commercial developer yet, although attempts have been made. 0AD casual mode can strive toward realising this dream, of the ultimate RTS/Strategy/management game. 0AD, The Birth of Civilisations, or something like that... Looking at the improvements to the game over the past few years, I'm sure that within a year 0AD will be able to handle 1000 moving units, greatly expanding the potential for epic gameplay, and this could/should be utilised. I understand that these ideas are so far away from the original concept or the current direction, that it makes some people uncomfortable, so that's why the need for 0AD Classic. These don't need to be competing ideas. Anyway, these things are definitely not the most important topics at the moment, there are much more pressing concerns regarding the next release, that need to be discussed in a more official framework. There have been many suggestions/requests from many random players on this forum the past months/year. Many of them are repetitive. The same kind of requests keep turning up, for example the capture vs destroy default issue. At least the most popular/recurring requests and suggestions need to be identified and discussed more in depth, and agreed upon resolution/solutions need to be formulated publicly by the development team in response.

I agree with most of those things... The game can improve a lot by simply optimising what's already there and utilising more of the already existing stuff. I just like to see more "useless" stuff, like statues or shrines or gardens, just for the sake of it. Those kind of small things lying around in Atlas, that never see the light of day, could add diversity and beauty without affecting gameplay, but giving casual players the option to beautify their town as they wish. It would add a lot of fun, to players like me, to whom the AI is more of a background disturbance that's easily put in check (even on very hard, the AI is quite predictable, although clear improvements have been made here).

@balduin, @Hannibal_Barca Yeah, a bunch of new icons need to be made for Kushites, for both buildings and units. Sound of the pyramids is ok for me, but I'm always open to suggestions Actually those are the smaller "forest elephants" The name of the elephant should be "Kushite War-Elephant", or, another attrictive name I once saw for them in a Yale publication was "Apedemak's War Elephants". Yes, donkeys shouldn't sound like camels The whole Nuba thing depends on wether or not someone models the building for Nuba mercs, and wether this is wanted. Nuba and Blemmye mercs would complete the historical unit roster, but seen as this isn't Total War (yet), they might be overkill. I'm for them, but I leave this decision in the hands of the community. African Bushman shouldn't be called like that anyway. That's actually the Nuba tribesman. For the gates, it was decided not to do the narrow gates because of pathfinding issues that would arise in regard to siege weapons and elephants passing. Potentially upgrading a "regular" gate to a stronger "narrow" gate that doesn't allow elephants or siege to pass is an interesting idea. Yes, palisades should ideally be replaced with mud-brick walls. I don't think wood would have been wasted on wall construction, but smaller mud-brick walls are very common throughout Kush. Doesn't need to be anything special, just simple, relatively weak walls. I think Kushites should definitely rear sanga-cattle as their main source of meat/milk. I recently found a bunch of reliefs in pyramid chapels depicting these cows in the presence of Gods and Kings, once again illustrating their importance. The herds were seen as a sign wealth and authority and were even used to do payments/loans. They also exported them to Egypt. Someone needs to model this species although I think an existing model of (Indian) cow can be "easily" adjusted to reflect the features of Sanga cattle. About the outpost, don't they look the same for every civ?

Fair enough, but if 10 or so unofficial mods can be supported, why not 2 official ones, instead of only one? Also, the casual player mode would essentially be the expanded version of the competitive mode, so it would be logical/intuitive which features would be in what version. I also don't see any reason why both modes couldn't be played both offline and online. One is just more tailored for competitive play and the other for expanded gameplay.

This is exactly what I mean. Conflict of interest. Online desires are not the same as single player desires... I don't understand how there are still people that don't see this? You're either unwilling, or unable to understand how the majority of single players play the game. For most casual players it's not about a brainless rush to crush your unexplainably aggressive AI-opponent as quickly as possible, nor is it about crunching the numbers and figuring out the perfect "build-order" and unit recruitment schedule. People want to immerse themselves in the game, imagine the town of their dreams. Then build it. Beautify it. Defend it. Expand it. People want to be able to create something unique with every game. Something worth fighting for. People want to fight epic battles. Not build exactly the same base, game after game because "that's the ideal build-order" and then send a handful of people to kill some women and call it an invasion-army.

Ok, thanks for the clarifications. So who is "in charge" that could moderate such a discussion, because it seems obvious to me there is actually a want and need for it. @Itms? I just want to remark that it's a new day indeed, full of new opportunities and there are new people bringing with them new possibilities (a lot of them just get frustrated with the lack of direction/clear tasks/vision). Off course, solving every hiccup in the game, or establishing an updated and feasable design document that everybody agrees on isn't going to happen overnight, but it's high time we as community (players and developers) work towards that. The specifics of this document should be discussed noted and officially pinned somewhere easy to access.The old design documents haven't been followed and are simply too old and obscured. I don't think most of the "new" people are familiar with them. This... I think most people want Optionality/Diversity/Aesthetic Pleasure/Historicity/Logical Gameplay/Intuitive Mechanics/Epicness/Scale/Immersion... Other people just want to play a numbers game: Stats/Counters/Balance/Efficiency. So here is a small/major suggestion for 0AD, another thing that seems obvious to me... "Split" the game in to two modes: Online/competitive (classic RTS): streamlined gameplay with a focus on balance Offline/casual (2017 RTS): focus on a large diversity of options and possibilities, aesthetics, expanded gameplay, buildings, units and beautifications, no limts (even if it seems pointless to the competitive gamers, they should just stick with classic RTS mode) This would literally solve the systemic conflict of interest between competitive and casual players. Both communities need to be appeased, but neither of them can possibly be satisfied with the same game! This needs to be understood by everyone! Conflict of ideas is good for the development of the game as it constantly drives us to look for the best ideas. Conflict of interest however (as we see here between casual and competitive gamers) is highly detrimental to the development. If the two are developed separately from each-other, focussing on the ideal mix of elements for each play-style, development and motivation would increase. Developments in either version can be adapted (or not) at will in the other version. I'd even be so bold as to say it could be done relatively easily (looking at how fast some of the mods are created). You'd just have to choose one of two modes: "Classic RTS", or "Enriched RTS". Classic RTS would play very well on low end computers, while people with high end gaming computers could get a lot more adventurous/epic in how they play 0AD. Oh, and: Definitely agree with this

@Lion.Kanzen That's from an album cover: "African Queens" by The Ritchie Family (1977). Taking it back to the days of disco The crown on the far right looks like something Kushite Queens would wear, but I think it's better to stick to the primary sources (the many reliefs posted in this thread) as the reference for such things. There's already a lot of accurate examples of crowns for both men and women.

My thoughts exactly... It's ever-changing nature is it's greatest strength. I do understand the frustrations shared by a lot of people, and I do actually think that the team isn't putting enough effort in to attracting new content producers and maintaining the current community of active members, or showcasing peoples' work and promotion for the game in general. The same issues also keep popping up incessantly by new players, and not much is done with it outside of the mods: citizen soldier-concept needs a remake: people that work and fight is awesome, but there need to be common labourers, better at economic activities (not only women) destroy needs to be the default over capture counters are impossible to understand for new-comers, and experienced players trip over this as well battalions, formations and armies need to be implemented convincingly overly aggressive AI (there should be two more, equally competent AI's: a reactionary one, and a defensive one) more variety/options in general, like DE Yes, I understand, these things need competent people to work on them. But what is the team doing to attract those people? Don't get me wrong, I know there's a lot of silent heroes coding away: @elexis, @mimo, @fatherbushido, @leper, @Pureon, @bb_, @Imarok, @Itms, @fabio, @implodedok, and many others... Shout out to you all for the amazing work so far. I've really enjoyed watching 0AD evolve and improve over the years. I just think you could use some help seen as the to-do list is still quite considerable, and valuable people like @wowgetoffyourcellphone leaving isn't helping development of new content. I think the true potential of 0AD is often overlooked, and we end up with a game trying to stream-line itself for competitive online game-play, but will feel empty without expanded single player options. Bottom-line, the game can be a lot more than it is now (expanded economy/technologies, modest city-building elements, battalions and armies and improved battle-mechanics, updated and more realistic maps/smoother terrain textures, etc). It's often remarked how much this game looks like AOEII, but the truth is, 0AD has the potential to be much greater than Age of Empires ever was, or ever will be! I'm very confident we can wipe the floor with the upcoming Age of Empires releases! We just need the right people working on the right things... Now really wouldn't be a bad time to set up a "game-plan" for the next release. An expansive, and clear, public discussion on the forums about what absolutely needs to be added/changed in the next release and how to go about it, with more considerations for the recurring issues listed above (and the various "requested features" topics). With active participation from the development team, so that people in the community can feel they're being listened to by the people actually implementing changes. Maybe someone like @feneur could start and moderate this discussion, with the first post keeping track of the agreed upon changes.

Is anybody else ready for some Total War style mechanics in 0AD? I know I am... A lockable battalion system keeps popping up as a requested feature. Being able to add any unit you like to a battalion (with different advantages/disadvantages), and then locking that battalion, would make you select the entire battalion upon clicking one unit within that battalion. Being able to add these battalions to lockable armies (which you can compose any way you like) would be an awesome system. This should be done with easy to understand buttons, where you also set formations and stances. This would make managing large armies a lot more pleasant. On the more recent models of MacBook pro, 0AD runs like a doozy. I can play with over a thousand pop, without any serious hiccups. I imagine that in future, with more improvements to the game, this ability to generate so many units will be utilised to create much more epic gameplay.

Why didn't I think of that, lol! But that still doesn't take away the discrepancies: We have a perfect Apedemak temple: but the model is now used as a "genereric" temple. Apedemak temple upgrade turns it into not-an-Apedemak temple... We have a perfect Amun temple: This is now cut in half and replaced with something that is not an Amun temple... Why???

@balduin The building set is essentially complete ( @LordGood is a 3D modelling machine...). I still need to do my final research and reference posts, including architecture stuff. I will then create an architecture-revision post, for the final draft of the building set. So suggestions can still be made. The only building that LordGood modelled that isn't in either of the mods, is the (oh so important) Amun temple. In @Hannibal_Barca's mod, the original Amun temple is cut in half. You can build a generic temple (which is actually an Apdemak temple), and then choose to upgrade it to an "Apedemak temple" (actually one half of the original Amun temple), or an "Amun temple" (the other half of the original Amun temple). I think it's an attractive option for gameplay, but not historic, and to be honest, I really want to see LordGood's original (complete) Amun temple in-game. It's such an amazing model (my favourite), and it's the most recognisably Kushite monumental structure apart from the pyramids. It's so historical... I know its size is a bit awkward, but that's the point! These structures were awkwardly large, and I don't see why this most important type of building in Kush can't be represented as such. It's size will be warranted because special techs will be researched there, making it important. It will be their special building, and yes, I know, they already have pyramids, but Kush can be a faction that demonstrates a greater architectural diversity. A benchmark for other civs. The most logical way of differentiating/diversifying the civ's from each other is allowing them to build their iconic structures (not just one special building, but potentially several). Just to clarify why the Amun temple can't be a wonder: there were at least 8 of these monumental temple complexes in ancient Kush. I have some idea's for the wonder as well, but more on that later. Optionally, two mercenary camps for Nuba and Blemmye mercenaries can still be modelled, giving access to cheap trash units (Nuba) and camel units (Blemmye) New textures (Kushite specific reliefs) need to be created. I hope to do this myself (creating outlines and color-schemes), and @Lion.Kanzen (photoshop magic). Generally, the textures can still use a small rework (at least some white plaster for the CC and other important buildings), but more on that in a future architecture post. Building props, like stone ram- and lion-statues, and statues of Kings still need to be made. Icons for buildings, units and techs. Some units and structures need renaming, and we need to start looking for native names as well. We will use the little Meroitic that we know, modern Nubian and Ancient Egyptian as the base-languages for Kushites) The units still need a lot of work. Some are already (almost) perfect. Others are still using mainly ptolemaic placeholders, which work well for now, but they'll have to be replaced in the coming months. @wackyserious was making some really nice progress a little while back in this thread, but those units haven't been implemented yet (not entirely finished yet). @wowgetoffyourcellphone, with help from @stanislas69 created a bunch of new units, implemented in Vox Populi. The main things that needs work for units are: shields (shape, pattern, decoration) bronze scale armour (corselet), for champions Heroes: Piye and Amanitore need to be replaced with Nastasen, Arakamani, Amanishakheto or Harsiotef (see time-period). Amanirenas should remain. weapons: sword and scabbard, Epsilon axe, narrow armour-piercing axe and a large hooked blade-axe, or a mace-axe still need to be modeled cavalry: Noble cavalry lancer needs to be modelled (I'm still working on an illustration) feathers for the Nubian units. Techs: Most techs are generic for now. Kushites have a very expansive history (lot's of info in this thread), and I believe we can create an almost exclusively civ-specific tech-tree for this faction, if in name only. So the tech-tree probably still needs a lot of work in terms of specifics and naming. I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting... As you see, most of what still needs to be done actually relies on us, providing the artists and modders with the correct information and references so they can continue working. I'm falling behind on my part (I've been quite busy lately), but I'm trying to get my last reference posts organised, so I can move ahead and create good illustrations of shield types and provide indigenous names and other more specific things.

The kingdom of Kush: NEWS! Vox Populi (mod) makes an updated and playable version of the Kushites available! After Delenda Est(download here), a second mod, Vox Populi (by @Hannibal_Barca) , has now featured the Kingdom of Kush as a playable faction, debuting many new models by @LordGood, replacing all Ptolemaic (building) placeholders, and adding many new units created by @wowgetoffyourcellphone, with additions like new weapons and hairstyles by @stanislas69. About Vox Populi: "This mod tries to address the main "weaknesses" of the current release: it aims to balance "op/up" units, it adjusts technologies and introduces some variety along the way As the name implies (Vox Populi = Voice of the People) , this mod is open to all suggestions of the 0 A.D. community and there is a high chance that if several "known" players agree on a suggestion, it could be added in here." Download here: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/22869-vox-populi-the-ultimate-balance-mod/ Special thanks to everybody involved in the development of this faction so far. Progress over the last few months has been considerable, largely due to the efforts of LordGood and Wowgetoffyourcellphone, and now Hannibal_Barca has given us the distinct pleasure of trying out all the new goodies for ourselves, in-game, along with many new balance considerations, aimed at improving gameplay. Thank you all! Screenshots:

@LordGood Boom! "Drops the mic..." Perfect! I love the way the lions are patiently waiting for their Mediterranean snack. That look... About the lions, the trick is to keep them well fed. Having a sharp stick handy at all times also helps. Also, don't try this at home... Those heavy chains remind me of those Nigerian circus hyenas:

I was actually surprised to find so many depictions of lions in Kushite art, including in a domesticated context, on a leash, or attacking captives. It's similar to earlier Egyptian examples, who actually imported lions from Kush. It's also very similar to the tradition of keeping lions in the Abyssinian empire (modern day Ethiopia). Haile Selassie is the most famous example, who had as many as 30 lions "guarding" his palace in Addis Ababa. These lions belonged to a genetically and phenotypically distinct subspecies of lion, smaller, and with a darker mane, which also runs across their underbelly (probably related to Barbary lions), now thought to be (nearly) extinct in the wild. I imagine that these were the same species of lion used by Kushites, and by extension Egyptians. Perhaps, like the North African Elephant, these were easier to handle due to their smaller size, and a longer/intenser exposure to human populations than their larger cousins? It seems to be an East African thing...

@LordGood Hohohooo!!! Amazing! I really love it! Thank you reference for the curious:

@LordGood , putting a smile on my face! With regard to Kushites, I still have to drop a bunch of reference materials which will influence the final design for the Kushites, but it's a lot, and I've been rather busy lately. I'm sure you'll love to go through that stuff (lot's of architecture stuff) when I drop it, and get a lot of inspiration from it. I'll try to get that done in the coming days (weeks?). It will allow for more detailed urban scenes and such. If you're really itching to create something now, how about Queen Amanirenas with pet lions and a bodyguard? Perhaps a Roman prisoner, on his knees, arms tied behind his back? Just realised how terribly off-topic this is :/

Euhm, I didn't quite get that, lol..

Ah, I see.. I'm blind sometimes... Hey, if I can save a little extra, I'll definitely commission a piece or two from you!

Wow! That's really good! The walls of Mycenae... Very, very good. Bronze Age.... Mmmm, good times, good times... [apologies for my ramblings in advance]

Oooh, I looooove Mycenaeans and Minoans...

And Rise of the East/Terra Magna. (new civilisations) and Hyrule Conquest (Zelda) See, these mods really need to be showcased in an easy to find and access directory. Particularly the most stable/popular mods, with descriptions, clear download instructions for all operating systems, and pretty screenshots . Allowing newer alphas to play mods built on older versions would be really nice, so that mods that aren't updated regularly are still playable after alpha-releases.

0AD on a mac is a joy! One of the best things about 0AD is the ability to play on either of the three main operating systems. Truly one of it's best features

When I look at the staff directory, there's a lot of people who I'm sure have added a lot of value to the game at some point in the past 15 years, but many of them haven't even been on this forum in more than a year. Currently there is a relatively small group of high value content producers, who are all fundamental to the continued development of this game, and they're not even all staff. Wowgetoffyourcellphone is one of these, and needs to be accommodated as one of the most important mod-producers here, offering a quality alternative to the vanilla game, and in turn spurring the development of this game, generating interest and raising it's potential even further. I'm not saying he's right (I don't understand the issue, like literally, I don't understand code), but he shouldn't be treated so dismissively. I've only been active on this forum since December, but I've been following it for many years, and I've noticed a dark and obscure, self-defeating trend in this otherwise lovely community. High quality content producers, like artists, modders and coders barely get any kind of feedback on their work. No reactions, compliments, constructive criticisms... Sometimes nothing at all. And sometimes it can even get snarky, like now (and we've probably all been guilty of that at some point). If someone spends hours on top of hours, even week after week, or even years working on a project, all for 2 likes and an "oh, that's nice", it makes people lose heart, as if their work wasn't even worth all that effort (while it really was). My point is that human resources are by far the most valuable resource of this game, and this shouldn't be treated so lightly. In the past few months, so much amazing stuff has been created not only for the Kushite faction or Delenda Est, but also for a Xiognu (mini?)-faction, the Thracians, the Norse, Anglo-Saxons, Hyrule Conquest and so many other things like experimental balancing mods and map-scripts, the order move indicator and a bunch of crazy code stuff I honestly don't understand, all with barely any reaction from the vast majority of people in this community. Why is everybody so silent? Stimulate development. Encourage artists. Showcase people's work. Help newbies acquire skills in the necessary fields by updating/simplifying the necessary wiki's/pages and improving user friendliness for non code-savy people. Welcome new people, ideas and content. Be patient with each other. Be patient with yourselves, and forgive one another's transgressions. Potatoes