Phalanx

That's a fair point! Just seems underwhelming imo

I'm just curious, is there any progress of implementing combat-usable formations into the game? Or has that remained tabled for now?

I know I'm a broken record, but I'm still a fan of renaming the sword unit to Argyraspides Thorakitai. The only time we see these "Romanized" units were at the Parade of Daphne, and Polybius and Bar Chovka suggest that they were Argyraspides Phalangites who were retrained, with Antiochus's intent to first reform the entire Argyraspides unit to this style (as it was the Royal Guard unit and most important) and then adopt it along the rest of the Seleucid army. Renaming it makes the unit feel more elite also, as opposed to just a cheap copy. I remember when I first downloaded the game, I didn't know if my "Romanized Thorakitai" were just copies of Principes, or if they were actually an elite unit. Renaming would help players make that connection (and make the unit feel cooler XD )

I'm aware what I'm about to say doesn't really contain any information, just an observation that there is little information to be found. The use of transverse crests is debated. Nobody can really find an reference for the crest having any meaning such as royalty status or an officer position. Obviously it signifies an officer status in the late Roman army. That could be because they took that idea from the Greeks, as they appropriated a lot of armour ideas from the Greeks. But just like the Italo-Corinthian helmet, it might have been appropriated with mistaken intent. It also could have been appropriated from the Gauls. Only Greek examples of it being used are on a couple of Spartan figurines, and a few amphorae. It is possible that Leonidas used a Corinthian or Corino-Chalcidican mix helmet like he has on the statue with spear above. However that statue was made in the 1990's, and might represent an inaccurate portrayal of his armour. This bust was made a couple of years after he died, and might be a more accurate representation, HOWEVER XD when the bust was recovered, the crest had fallen off and the current crest is a recreation, so there is a possibility (though I doubt it based on the fact that there are no marks on the sides of the helmet to detonate attachment points) that he used a transverse crest. On top of that, its not even certain this is Leonidas. There was no inscription, and it is only referred to as "Leonidas" because it was found around the Spartan Acropolis, and the woman that found it just call it so. So nobody really knows about his armour. Maybe he had this transverse crest, or maybe he didn't. So I guess its up to the us to decide. Some accounts say he was a fairly down-to-earth general, so maybe he wore a normal crest like the rest of his Spartan "bois". Others say he was a majestic and proud royal, so maybe he did wear a transverse crest to show his status.

Yep! Deleting the cache worked! Thank y'all!

How do you do that? I can't find it in the right click menu for Tortoise.

Touche, mon ami! XD Tortoise SVN does not tell me any error messages. Upon opening Pyrogenesis, it black screens, plays the menu music, but I get this as an error message (Its lenghty) Now I know diddly squat about code, but if I suppress this and continue, the main menu boots up, but I have weird block symbols instead of text on all buttons.

^ I have error messages and all my text characters are weirded out when I launch svn.

Aren't these references pretty close to what we have already?

I was thinking something along these lines. I found a single source describing the Romanized Seleucid Shield as a scutum-like shield, not a thureos, but that is only a single source.

Yep, that is a fair question. I honestly have no idea. I cannot find any sources about what they actually had.

What was broken about it? Did it just not work?

Okay, this totally might be false, but I have a few comment about the Romanized Swords. I still think they should be referred as Argyraspides Romahicos, because the 5,000 swords seen at Daphne were taken from the 10,000 Argyrasdpides Phalangites (its is mentioned that there were only 5,000 of the phalangite silver shields present). But I think that they should mostly be wearing chain mail (I know some of the actors are, but a lot of them have a linothorax) And this one might not have a good reception, but I think they should have a scutum-like shield. Or at least one similar to a Hastatus. Because it's stated that Antiochus IV loved all things roman, which is why he decided to reform the infantry. It think it's weird that if he loved all this roman stuff so much as to directly copy it, he wouldn't copy the shield, which is arguably one of the most innovative parts of the Hastatus. But that is all just my opinion, it might be totally wrong, but it seems no-one (sourcewise) seems to know exactly how the Silver Shield Swords were equipped, besides them having chain mail.

DISCLAIMER! I'M NOT A PROGRAMMER! I'm a Game Design/Metagame/Gameplay Mechanic Designer (at least studying to be one at university ) I have an idea about to to temporarily make formations semi-usable. Could it be programmed that formations automatically place all units within the formation in "Stand Ground" stance? this could stop the formation from dissipating as soon as an attack order is given. Possibly also make all formation movement attack move, to simulate the pushing of Phalanxes or Syntagmas and the fact that formations can't just run through enemy units. Possibly using auras or something to create the buffs and debuffs of entering formations. I have no idea how to stop units not in the front of a formation from attacking. Possibly if formations are programmed with a designated "Front row" or "Attacking rows" so all units that aren't in the aforementioned rows don't attack. But that might be wicked complicated.

I personally think the packed ones should move faster.

'Parently I'm just crazy then ;P

Well, I personally don't rush, which is maybe why I'm not doing well. But correct, a faction shouldn't be limited to just one single strat. Granted, this all could be stemming from the fact that I just might be terrible at the game , but I've been trying to look at this from a standpoint of two equal players Except for the metal and wood required to build their not-extremely-slow resource gatherer. Can't argue with that and I'm aware that they can still be effective in early game when paired with a large amount of camel archers, but camels can't provide a ton of help to your economy compared to infantry, and other civs can have that early game attack/defense power cheaply and without making their economy suffer. Because for every resource you spend on camels, that resources you can't spend on ranged units, or pikes, or women that are arguably better for your overall economy. Again, maybe I'm just not using them right, or am just bad, but while the Ptolemies can definitely pick up steam as the game progresses, I'm just worried that they have only 2 units that are considered "normal" citizen soldiers i.e. not merc, champions, or artillery. Granted, Athens is also in the same boat, but they have a whole host of other issues as well.

Let me preface this with; I am aware that the team is not focused on balance right now, but I feel like this needs to be pointed out anyways. The Ptolemies are one of the, if not THE, worst faction in the game at the moment. This is due in half to how the game has been programmed, and half how the roster has been created, and I'll cover both issues. First, as has been discussed in the thread about revamping all the animations: The Diadochi kindgoms are at a disadvantage economically compared to other civs, because pikemen move slower than all other infantry, and thus are not as efficient at gathering resources. This is especially hurtful to the Ptolemies and Macedon. Both of their starter infantry units are pikes. The Diadochi are also suffering due to pikes just sucking in combat (formations are not functioning atm) and again for the Ptolemies and Macedon, this is incredibly painful as they don't get access to non-pike units until later in the match. (It isn't an issue for the Seleucids, as they have easy access to the Thueros Spear from the beginning of the match). Now to the Ptolemaic-specific issue. They start with a pike, and a mercenary skirmisher. This means to jump start their economy, or to defend against a rush, they must gather metal as well as food and wood, which in the early game can put them much farther behind than other factions, who only need food and wood until they age up. Even with the barracks built, all the Ptolemaic infantry besides their pikes are mercenaries, which require a third resource, which then put even more strain on the Ptolemaic economy. Stone and Iron are can become hotly contested during a match, and a player might be cut off from their supply of stone or iron. Every other faction can fall back on their starter units and still create some semblance of a balanced army, but the Ptolemaics cannot. It would be camels and pikes. Thats it. A fix for this would be to not make their starter ranged unit a mercenary. If I remember correctly, they used to have Nubian or Numidian bows as their starter ranged, which was scrapped due to historical inaccuracy. And while it is true that basically all of the Ptolemaic army was mercenaries, I believe this is one of the instances where gameplay needs to be precedent to accuracy. Possibly a Greek settler unit, or another native auxiliary. But imho the Ptolemaics NEED to have a non-merc ranged starter unit.

Throwing my 2 cents in: I completely agree with the fact that it needs to be in the U shape of all the other barracks. The most basic level on which humans see objects is by its silhouette. So no matter the individual details, the player can look at something, subconsciously see its silhouette, and identify it as a barracks. Look back to other strategy games AoE II, AoM, Rise of Nations, even Battle for Middle Earth (to a degree). While all the cultures have different variants on the same building, they all stick quite close to the same silhouette. How this affects this project: I love all the designs that Stan has come up with, and all the references are fantastic. My one major comment would be that even if the enclosed courtyard would be most historically accurate, I wouldn't do it. You can simulate it with arches connecting over the doorframe, like the current barracks, but the general silhouette needs to keeps its U shape. Shields on the walls would also go far to help get that "immediate identification" factor.

I just ran into this in a game I played: I don't think unfinished buildings should count to the victory conditions. I spent 10 mins running cav all over the map looking for the last unit of my AI enemy, and after using cheats to fully reveal the map, it turns out they placed the foundation of a dock but never started it. But because the dock is a production building, the game wouldn't let me win till I destroyed it, but obviously there was nothing the AI could do with it, it had nobody left to actually finish it.

I know its kinda off topic for this thread, but imho, the speed should only be affected by formations. But I know formations are still kinda iffy right now.

I know this was already said, but please! The Diadochi factions already suffer economically, because pikes move slower than all other units, so their economy is not as robust. Everybody mentioned the speed of skirmishers when gathering, but not the slowness of pikes.

So what would the different bonuses/units/techs from each Hero? And would this system be implemented for just the Seleucids, or all factions?

Is there a concencus on these? Basically I just don't like the redundancy of the thureophoroi in the Spartan roster, but visually I don't like the black cloak, it just looks very out of place. EDIT: Hehehe. After all this time, I realized I didn't like the Thracian Blackcloack, not the Thureophoroi. I still think having both of them in the Spartan roster is a tad redundant, but thats a balancing issue.

mmmmm. I love me some AOM. Also, this system reminds me of Anlgo-American states and Balkan states in the AOE III MOD Wars of Liberty. They implemented a similar system.