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Specific Name Review: Structures

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11 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Yes, but what might be done in the future is irrelevant. The current specific names ought to be based on the current wonders.

Okay, but that tangent was already closed and Alexander had already said exactly what you just said.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone

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1 minute ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

ὁ νεώσοικος neōsoikos: dock, shipshed = this is superior in my view, but use it in plural νεώσοικοι neōsoikoi - 'ship-houses' I almost always encounter it thus in the greatest authors.

Hmm, I am using Neōsoikoi for an Athenian special tech at the Shipyard. Is Naupegeion or something else okay? 

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Just now, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Hmm, I am using Neōsoikoi for an Athenian special tech at the Shipyard. Is Naupegeion or something else okay? 

I would strongly suggest Neōsoikoi for the structure, but is it not in this case very natural that a tech can be called the same as the structure?

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5 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I would strongly suggest Neōsoikoi for the structure, but is it not in this case very natural that a tech can be called the same as the structure?

It would indeed feel kind of awkward. Imagine the Phrourion having a "Phrourion" tech, adding extra phrouriness to your Fortress. Though, I could just rename the tech. This thread is giving me lots of ideas.

 

EDIT: Renamed my Military Shipyards to Neōsoikoi. (y) 

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone

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athen: temple of Athena Parthenos Hieron tēs Athēnas, Wonder ΙΕΡΟΝ ΤΗΣ ΑΘΗΝΑΣ
mace: temple of Olympian Zeus Hieron tou Dios tou Olympiou ΙΕΡΟΝ ΤΟΥ ΔΙΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΟΛΥΜΠΙΟΥ
ptol: temple of Apollo Hieron tou Apollōnos ΙΕΡΟΝ ΤΟΥ ΑΠΟΛΛΩΝΟΣ

sele: temple of Pythian Apollo Hieron tou Apollōnos Pythiou ΙΕΡΟΝ ΤΟΥ ΑΠΟΛΛΩΝΟΣ ΠΥΘΙΟΥ
spart:temple of Artemis Orthia Hieron tēs Artemidos ΙΕΡΟΝ ΤΗΣ ΑΡΤΕΜΙΔΟΣ

@Nescio I updated all the temples and standardized to Hieron also for Athens since technically the whole sanctuary was the wonder and not just the temple although that is all the modern mind thinks of.

I reviewed the sources again and found a conclusive source for Hoplothēkē in Κλαύδιος Αἰλιανός, Ποικίλη Ἱστορία 6.12:

Διονύσιος δὲ ὁ δεύτερος τὴν ἀρχὴν εἶχεν εὖ μάλαπεριπεφραγμένην τοῦτον τὸν τρόπον. ναῦς μὲν ἐκέκτητο οὐκἐλάττους τῶν τετρακοσίων (τετρήρεις/ἑξήρεις) καὶ πεντήρεις: πεζῶν δὲ δύναμιν ἐς δέκα μυριάδας, ἱππεῖς δὲ ἐννεακισχιλίους. ἡ δὲ πόλις τῶν Συρακο(υ)σίων λιμέσιν ἐκεκόσμητο μεγίστοις, καὶ τεῖχος αὐτῇπεριεβέβλητο ὑψηλότατον: σκεύη δὲ εἶχεν ἕτοιμα ναυσὶν ἄλλαις πεντακοσίαις, τεθησαύριστο δὲ αὐτῇ καὶ σῖτος ἐ(ἰ)ς ἑκατὸν μεδίμνων μυριάδας. καὶ ὁπλοθήκη νενησμένη ἀσπίσι καὶ μαχαίραις καὶ δόρασι καὶ κνημῖσι καὶ θώραξι καὶ καταπέλταις(/κνημῖδας περιττὰς καὶ θώρακας καὶ καταπέλτας εἶχε)

Dionysius II protected his power effectively in the following way. He had not less than four hundred ships, quadriremes and quinqueremes; his infantry were not less than a hundred thousand, with nine thousand cavalry. The city of Syracuse was endowed with very large harbours, and an extremely high wall surrounded it. There was equipment in store for another five hundred ships. A million bushels of corn were stored away. The armoury was piled high with shields, daggers, and spears, a great quantity of calf protectors, breastplates, and catapults.


I am now positive that it is the best term, Aelianos wrote in expert Greek and drew from all the best sources, as his teacher is even reported Pausanias himself. There is no doubt that his classical Greek was formed through a longlasting and extensive exposure to all the great Hellenistic authors, whose best stories and details he compiled in this particular work the Ποικίλη Ἱστορία, here we have a direct expression of what was only inferred from the other sources: The the hoplotheke was full of all kinds of arms, including machines for siege warfare.

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

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On 6/29/2019 at 11:15 AM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

ὁ νεώσοικος neōsoikos: dock, shipshed = this is superior in my view, but use it in plural νεώσοικοι neōsoikoi - 'ship-houses' I almost always encounter it thus in the greatest authors.

Yes, neōsoikoi is indeed perfect for this:

2082709409_Screenshotfrom2019-07-0113-06-56.png.7f883abc64223e23b9ae7b2f8b772228.png

However, for a larger naval base, neōrion (sg) or neōria (pl) is certainly appropiate, e.g. a Greek equivalent to Carthage's cothon:

1933568822_Screenshotfrom2019-07-0113-10-45.png.07f7a44d7f6038bc0448def89e441b6f.png

(The actor of which is actually completely wrong, but that's a different discussion.)

On 6/29/2019 at 11:18 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Hmm, I am using Neōsoikoi for an Athenian special tech at the Shipyard.

What exactly does your technology do? You could consider using some other phrase, e.g. ναυπηγοί naupēgoi “shipbuilders/shipwrights”.

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On 6/29/2019 at 12:10 PM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

athen: temple of Athena Parthenos Hieron tēs Athēnas, Wonder ΙΕΡΟΝ ΤΗΣ ΑΘΗΝΑΣ
mace: temple of Olympian Zeus Hieron tou Dios tou Olympiou ΙΕΡΟΝ ΤΟΥ ΔΙΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΟΛΥΜΠΙΟΥ
ptol: temple of Apollo Hieron tou Apollōnos ΙΕΡΟΝ ΤΟΥ ΑΠΟΛΛΩΝΟΣ

sele: temple of Pythian Apollo Hieron tou Apollōnos Pythiou ΙΕΡΟΝ ΤΟΥ ΑΠΟΛΛΩΝΟΣ ΠΥΘΙΟΥ
spart:temple of Artemis Orthia Hieron tēs Artemidos ΙΕΡΟΝ ΤΗΣ ΑΡΤΕΜΙΔΟΣ

Epithets are meaningful. Why did you exclude it from the athen and spart wonders but include it in those of mace and sele?

On 6/29/2019 at 12:10 PM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

@Nescio I updated all the temples and standardized to Hieron also for Athens since technically the whole sanctuary was the wonder and not just the temple although that is all the modern mind thinks of. 

No objections; both τό ἱερόν “holy place” and ὁ νᾱός “temple, shrine” are correct, as is the more technical τό τέμενος “cut off land, sacred area, precinct, sanctuary” (roughly equivalent to Latin templum).

On 6/29/2019 at 12:10 PM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I reviewed the sources again and found a conclusive source for Hoplothēkē in Κλαύδιος Αἰλιανός, Ποικίλη Ἱστορία 6.12:

Thanks, Aelian VH 6.12 is indeed clear; let's use Hoplothēkē “armoury” for the siege workshop then.

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19 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Epithets are meaningful. Why did you exclude it from the athen and spart wonders but include it in those of mace and sele?

Only because those three are THE temples for the respective factions - the epithets in the others are for added clarity only, as there could be some doubt. I mean Macedon and Seleucid, at what year when borders were where, and then the myriad temples it could have been. With Athens and Sparta, there is only that one temple it could be, at least that is how I see it.

Apart from that the Ptolemaic name with epithet would become an unbearably long string I think? But maybe you have some suggestions that are in some sources also, that could "get around" too long text strings. Then just post them and we can maybe standardize it so all have epithets, in principle I am for but as it is now I couldn't solve the Ptolemaic string addition without making it super long, for I would add the city name as marker, I couldn't see what we could add instead that would be a source-rooted marker, and I am against just making stuff up if you know what I mean.

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

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6 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Only because those three are THE temples for the respective factions - the epithets in the others are for added clarity only, as there could be some doubt.

Exactly! Which is why I'm arguing in favour of including the epithets, to avoid confusing the temple of Athena Parthenos with that of Athena Nike (both are on the Athenian Acropolis), or the temple of Artemis Orthia in Lacedaemon with the far more famous temple of Artemis in Ephese.

10 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Apart from that the Ptolemaic name with epithet would become an unbearably long string I think?

See Roman wonder (“Aedes Iovis Optimi Maximi”) for comparison.

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Just now, Nescio said:

Exactly! Which is why I'm arguing in favour of including the epithets, to avoid confusing the temple of Athena Parthenos with that of Athena Nike (both are on the Athenian Acropolis), or the temple of Artemis Orthia in Lacedaemon with the far more famous temple of Artemis in Ephese.

See Roman wonder (“Aedes Iovis Optimi Maximi”) for comparison.

Isn't the Athena Nike temple part of the sanctuary of Athena in Athens?  And Ephesos was never in the possession of Sparta or am I all off here?

Don't tell me they made it "Aedes Iovis Optimi Maximi Capitolini" ?

But if you can find concrete proposals with sources then I am more than open to adding some epithets. But:

Hieron tou Apollōnos what then?

In Lysias it says τὰ δὲ ἐν τῷ Ἐλευσῖνι ἱερῷ - Ἐλευσῖνι meaning 'at Eleusis', so that would be a usable model - but city name for the Ptolemaic wonder sanctuary was ΑΠΟΛΛΩΝΟΣ ΠΟΛΙΣ ΜΕΓΑΛΗ - Apollōnos Polis Megalē??

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7 hours ago, Nescio said:

What exactly does your technology do? You could consider using some other phrase, e.g. ναυπηγοί naupēgoi “shipbuilders/shipwrights”.

I use Naupegoi for a ship train time tech, and Neosoikoi for a special ship repair tech. I might be revamping the Shipyard techs anyway, so I'll get back to you.

 

7 hours ago, Nescio said:

However, for a larger naval base, neōrion (sg) or neōria (pl) is certainly appropiate, e.g. a Greek equivalent to Carthage's cothon:

1933568822_Screenshotfrom2019-07-0113-10-45.png.07f7a44d7f6038bc0448def89e441b6f.png

(The actor of which is actually completely wrong, but that's a different discussion.)

What's completely wrong with the Cothon model? Looks pretty accurate from the images I have seen. Matches 90% of the images on Google.


 

Spoiler

 

pjo0vp7fllt4aaeazfho.jpgCarthage-utopian-green-utopiangreen-lostKarthagoArsenal.jpg

painting-of-carthage-harbor.jpg?w=1600&hmain-qimg-34ff07a1cd94edac6e0c9dbf0c9321carthage05.jpgf73f3fd499cc19bff50a5f88794619f3.jpglatest?cb=20121211160935Tactica_2016_Karthago_2.jpg

 

 

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19 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Isn't the Athena Nike temple part of the sanctuary of Athena in Athens?  And Ephesos was never in the possession of Sparta or am I all off here?

Whether the Athenian acropolis was a single sanctuary with numerous temples and statues or an area with numerous separate, adjacent sanctuaries is not really important; I suppose both could be argued to be true. And no, Ephesus was never an integral part of Sparta, it was nominally an independent city-state, although in practice it had a succession of overlords (Athens, Sparta, Persia, Macedon, Seleucids, Ptolemies, Attalids, Rome). Anyway, that's beside the point.

What matters is that there were multiple temples of Athena in Athens and presumably multiple sanctuaries of Artemis in the Spartan lands, therefore epithets are not only decorative but also distinctive.

The ptol wonder is indeed problematic. Although built by the Ptolemies, the temple of Edfu is very much an Egyptian temple: Egyptian iconography, hieroglyphic inscriptions, traditional architecture, local cult, etc. I don't know of any relevant Greek epithets there and I doubt they could be found. I suppose ἱερόν τῆς Ἀπόλλωνος πόλεως “temple of Edfu” or ἱερόν τῇ Ἀπόλλωνος πόλει “temple in Edfu” could work (although there were multiple lesser Appolonopoleis, I don't think including the qualifier “Great” is necessary for us; there were also several mountains called Olympos in Greece).

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14 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

What's completely wrong with the Cothon model? Looks pretty accurate from the images I have seen. Matches 90% of the images on Google.

What's fundamentally wrong with it is that the cothon is **not** a stone pier built in the sea:

Spoiler

As can be seen in present-day Brighton:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Brighton_Pier%2C_Brighton%2C_East_Sussex%2C_England-2Oct2011_%281%29.jpg

it is an artificial circular harbour dug out on land:

Spoiler

As can be seen in present-day Carthage:

1920px-Carthage-1958-PortsPuniques.jpg

and the term refers to the entire naval base (outer structures, water circle, optional island).

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As I said I really am open to epithet suggestions, but you have to provide sources since you've all been insisting super hard on me going source-hunting for long days, and the above list is the result of a massive source-hunting operation.

So if you have what you think superior epithet suggestions, then provide a few sources for your proposal and I am sure we can adopt them :tank:

 

PS. I am not a Carthage expert but that cothon model does look extremely fanciful, although I'll leave that to the Carthaginian guys.

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

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3 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

As I said I really am open to epithet suggestions, but you have to provide sources since you've all been insisting super hard on me going source-hunting for long days, and the above list is the result of a massive source-hunting operation.

So if you have what you think superior epithet suggestions, then provide a few sources for your proposal and I am sure we can adopt them

Fair enough, let's consult Pausanias; because it's a lot of text I'm simply linking to the Perseus version:

book I (Attika), Greek: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+1&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0159
book I (Attika), English: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+1&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160
book III (Laconia), Greek: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+3&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0159
book III (Laconia), English: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+3&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160

Apparently there are dozens of Athenian sanctuaries of Athena and Spartan sanctuaries of Artemis, too many to list here.

As for the Athenian wonder, there is Paus. 1.24.4-5: ἐς δὲ τὸν ναὸν ὃν Παρθενῶνα ὀνομάζουσιν “As you enter the temple that they name the Parthenon”, so I suppose we could simply stick with Παρθενών Parthenōn.

As for the Spartan wonder, there is Paus. 3.16.7: τὸ δὲ χωρίον τὸ ἐπονομαζόμενον Λιμναῖον Ὀρθίας ἱερόν ἐστιν Ἀρτέμιδος “The place named Limnaeum (Marshy) is sacred to Artemis Orthia (Upright)”, thus ἱερόν τῆς Ἀρτέμιδος Ὀρθίας hieron tēs Artemidos Orthias would work. (I'm assuming this is the most important Spartan sanctuary, because Pausanias spends five paragraphs discussing it and its statue.)

Edited by Nescio
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13 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

(I corrected your Η to E here - please also review me for typos, ok?)

Oops, I really should look more critically at what I type; thanks for pointing it out.

What shall we do with the Ptolemaic wonder? Leave it as “Temple of Edfu” until something better is found?

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4 hours ago, Nescio said:

Oops, I really should look more critically at what I type; thanks for pointing it out.

What shall we do with the Ptolemaic wonder? Leave it as “Temple of Edfu” until something better is found?

No way, it will be Hieron tou Apollōnos (Apollōnos Polis Megalē) until someone posts a useful historically attested epithet. @Nescio you got us into this Ptolemaic epithet corner, you find a way out of it. A Greek way out of it ;)

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1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

No way, it will be Hieron tou Apollōnos (Apollōnos Polis Megalē) until someone posts a useful historically attested epithet. @Nescio you got us into this Ptolemaic epithet corner, you find a way out of it. A Greek way out of it ;)

Well, I don't know of any authors describing the temple in question, therefore I highly doubt we'll be able to find any attested form. As for a way out, I see two options:

  • ignore the interpretatio graeca; Ὧρος Horus is attested in Plut. De Iside 50:
    Spoiler

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plut.+De+Iside+50&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0238 :
    διὸ καὶ τῶν μὲν ἡμέρων ζῴων ἀπονέμουσιν αὐτῷ τὸ ἀμαθέστατον, ὄνον· τῶν δ᾽ ἀγρίων τὰ θηριωδέστατα, κροκόδειλον καὶ τὸν ποτάμιον ἵππον. περὶ μὲν οὖν τοῦ ὄνου προδεδηλώκαμεν. ἐν Ἑρμοῦ πόλει δὲ Τυφῶνος ἄγαλμα δεικνύουσιν ἵππον ποτάμιον· ἐφ᾽ οὗ βέβηκεν ἱέραξ ὄφει μαχόμενος, τῷ μὲν ἵππῳ τὸν Τυφῶνα δεικνύντες, τῷ δ᾽ ἱέρακι δύναμιν καὶ ἀρχήν, ἣν βίᾳ κτώμενος ὁ Τυφὼν πολλάκις οὐκ ἀνίεται ταραττόμενος ὑπὸ τῆς; κακίας καὶ ταράττων. διὸ καὶ θύοντες ἑβδόμῃ τοῦ Τυβὶ μηνός, ἣν καλοῦσιν ἄφιξιν Ἴσιδος ἐκ Φοινίκης, ἐπιπλάττουσι τοῖς ποπάνοις ἵππον ποτάμιον δεδεμένον. ἐν δ᾽ Ἀπόλλωνος πόλει νενομισμένον ἐστὶ κροκοδείλου φαγεῖν πάντως ἕκαστον· ἡμέρᾳ δὲ μιᾷ θηρεύσαντες ὅσους ἂν δύνωνται καὶ κτείναντες ἀπαντικρὺ τοῦ ἱεροῦ προβάλλουσι, καὶ λέγουσιν ὡς ὁ Τυφὼν τὸν Ὧρον ἀπέδρα κροκόδειλος γενόμενος, πάντα καὶ ζῷα καὶ φυτὰ καὶ πάθη τὰ φαῦλα καὶ βλαβερὰ Τυφῶνος ἔργα καὶ μέρη καὶ κινήματα ποιούμενοι.

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plut.+De+Iside+50&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0239 :
    For this reason they assign to him the most stupid of the domesticated animals, the @#$%, and of the wild animals, the most savage, the crocodile and the hippopotamus.
    In regard to the @#$% we have already offered some explanation. At Hermopolis they point out a statue of Typhon in the form of an hippopotamus, on whose back is poised a hawk fighting with a serpent. By the hippopotamus they mean to indicate Typhon, and by the hawk a power and rule, which Typhon strives to win by force, oftentimes without success, being confused by his wickedness and creating confusion For this reason, when they offer sacrifice on the seventh day of the month Tybi, which they call the ‘Coming of Isis from Phoenicia,’ they imprint on their sacred cakes the image of an hippopotamus tied fast. In the town of Apollonopolis it is an established custom for every person without exception to eat, of a crocodile; and on one day they hunt as many as they can and, after killing them, cast them down directly opposite the temple. And they relate that Typhon escaped Horus by turning into a crocodile, and they would make out that all animals and plants and incidents that are bad and harmful are the deeds and parts and movements of Typhon.

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plut.+De+Iside+50&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0240 :
    For which reason they assign him the @#$%, the most brutal and sottish of all the tame beasts, and the crocodile and river-horse, the most savage and fierce of all the wild beasts. Of the @#$% we have spoken already. They show us at Hermopolis the statue of Typhon, which is a river-horse with a hawk on his back fighting with a serpent; where they set out Typhon by the river-horse, and by the hawk that power and principle which Typhon possesses himself of by violence, and thereupon ceases not to disturb others and to be disturbed himself by his malice. For which reason also, when they are to offer sacrifice upon the seventh day of the month Tybi, at the festival which they call the Arrival of Isis out of Phoenicia, they print the river-horse bound upon their sacred cakes. Besides this, there is a constant custom at the town of Apollo, for every one to eat some part of a crocodile; and having [p. 111] upon a certain set day hunted down as many of them at they are able, they kill them, and throw down their carcasses before the temple. And they tell us that Typhon made his escape from Horus in the form of a crocodile for they make all bad and noxious things—whether animals, plants or passions—to be the works, the members and the motions of Typhon.

    i.e. ἱερόν τοῦ Ὦρου hieron tou Hōrou “temple of Horus”

  • name the “temple of Edfu” after its location, as Herodotus does for those of Ephesus and Samos (ὁ ἐν Ἐφέσῳ ἐστὶ νηὸς καὶ ὁ ἐν Σάμῳ—Hdt. 2.148.2) and Buto (τὸ ἐν Βουτοῖ ἱρόν—Hdt. 2.156.2),
    i.e. ἱερόν ἐν (τῇ) Ἀπόλλωνος πόλει hieron en (tēi) Apollōnos polei “temple in/at Apollonopolis”

Edited by Nescio
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9 hours ago, Nescio said:

What's fundamentally wrong with it is that the cothon is **not** a stone pier built in the sea:

  Reveal hidden contents

As can be seen in present-day Brighton:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Brighton_Pier%2C_Brighton%2C_East_Sussex%2C_England-2Oct2011_%281%29.jpg

it is an artificial circular harbour dug out on land:

  Reveal hidden contents

As can be seen in present-day Carthage:

1920px-Carthage-1958-PortsPuniques.jpg

and the term refers to the entire naval base (outer structures, water circle, optional island).

Well, yes. Duh. But that is not possible to depict in the middle of a skirmish. Hence the most distinctive and useful element is depicted. 

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