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Here is the patch: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D5269

I would say just high risk. Its pretty rare to get them in a position you actually get the rewards (because they are so clunky). Yeah, they are rarely seen in TGs and almost never in 1v1s (except for when vali pulls some wizardry).

They are used. They are just high risk high reward units. Easy to lose, but if you manage to get them on a good safe spot, they are extremely effective. And they are indeed effective against compact enemy formations. If they didn't have pack-unpack time, they will just be broken, and a too easy replacement for ranged units. I guess this is why hans don't have access to their wheeled bolt shooters, they are just too op.

bolt shooters are not used in "high level" Tg's, because they are too expensive both in time, since u need to get p3 and in res, since u can get more upgrades/ and spam soldiers easily with barracks, i think bolt shooters should have no unpack time, but theyr speed and used pop to make increased to 3-4 per bolt, so they become viable as a support unit, to help counter blob fights, like some players use "press formation, wait for then to organize, and Press H, so melee like 40 spears will act like 10 units and attack all at same time, instead of they looking for a path to attack if u use "Ctrl + right click"

yes and I have these set to nothing. Can you successfully make batches? hold shift -> press 1111111111

But you're aware there's seperate hotkey entries for setting, selecting, and adding control groups, right? Uninstalling and reinstalling... but I'm a bit clueless. Can anyone else on Windows reproduce the issue?

hmm, using shift+1,2,3 etc? I can use the numbers to queue single units, but not batches. You mean restarting the game, or uninstalling and reinstalling?

Using numbers to queue up units (in place of making control groups) works fine for me as well. Have you tried reinstalling the game?

ok so since this is a general siege discussion, I would like to post about siege pack times. Currently catapults and bolt shooters take 10 seconds to convert between packed and unpacked. I think this is a needlessly long conversion time and it basically makes the use of catapults and bolt shooters highly clunky and annoying. Also, it massively reduces the surprise factor, which is important in 0ad. Often I see players prefer to use rams even when up against turtled civs that heavily counter rams like iberians. Lastly, pushing a player with siege ends up taking too much time for most games. in team games at least, the rest of your team may have lost the game before your catapults have made progress. I'd like to reduce the pack time to 5 seconds and the pack time upgrade to -50% prepare time, so they come up to 2.5 seconds.

on "officer" type units, I don't really see the need to simulate these except for civ - specific reasons, like the centurions. Other than for special cases, there is really no point in simulating officers and lower level military leadership. It just seems like a complication that may as well be baked into the soldiers anyway.

Well I unassigned the control group hotkeys, and this is also something you can do on mac. Now that I am on windows I am surprised this is different.

no i mean more like a civic equivalent of the heroes we have. The ministers are more like an economic version of the trumpeters.

Well, it is not a major feature request indeed and sounds complicated to implement as a mod while the player could indeed hit <Pause> for that. Mods cannot execute key commands?

I think what you're basically describing is the Han Minister. I've put a mild amount of thought into genericizing the Heroes. So, for instance, instead of named heroes, you'd have officer units that do what the heroes do. They'd have double or triple health of a champion and a training limit, but not the massive health of a current hero. Politician Train from Civic Center Boosts Gathering and Building Banner Carrier/Standard Bearer Train from Barracks and Stable Infantry and Cavalry versions Boosts movement and armor General/Officer Train from the Fortress Boosts Attack They'd be themed to their civ of course. The Athenian "General" would be a Strategos. Athenian "Politician" would be an Archon, Satrap for Persians, etc.

This would be difficult for me personally to pull off, as I'm not sure if it would be moddable or if the actual engine would need new code. If it's moddable, I'd definitely like to do that, but I'd need help. @Freagarach and I play tested the mod a few years ago and also noted what you did. However, in Age of Mythology, the minor god selection screens don't stop the match either. So, there's an element of urgency to your choice. YMMV if that urgency is desirable or not.

You reassigned the hotkeys? Maybe the numbers are conflicting with the default control group hotkeys then.

In DE selecting a hero and reading the associated information is actually happening while the game is already running. I think if you leave the entry page open long enough you could loose while not even your hero was seletcted. Therefore I typically pause the game for this. For convenience, could there be a possibility to do hero selection before the game has actually started or auto pasue the game until hero is selected?

@Vantha yes but it seems using numbers like this does not work and produces some strange behavior, like not being able to click. Can anyone else on windows confirm?

well, coming from someone who has -tried- to balance civs and design new features, the team bonuses can be limiting. Ie, I am thinking of some civ bonus and I realize that basically the same thing is already a team bonus from another civ. If those bonuses double up, then you have super OP combos of civs, which is not intended. Then in essence, every team bonus for 1 civ restricts the civ bonus possibilities for all the other civs. Then as you start to add new civs, this task gets harder and harder.

I don't know about that. For one, heroes have super strong stats and could be used for very cheesy stuff early on. I suppose we are introducing a p2 hero (kind of a B tier hero) in a27 for Athenians, so we will see how strong that is. @wowgetoffyourcellphone what about this: instead of selecting a hero, you select a ruler. This would be a purely infantry unit without much fighting stats, but some bonus or aura, potentially you could use existing civ bonuses for this too. I don't really like doing it at the start of the game, because it becomes a 1 click strategy: your choice would determine your follow up moves. It could be interesting to make this available from the cc once you reach p2: Click an icon in the cc called "Take rule" or something, and it pulls up the dialogue to make the selection. Then these ruler units could be used for regicide. idk, just a thought.

I agree, I think the 25 wood cost especially has made them much less worthwhile. However, lowering the cost back to 100 or 80 wood and keeping them weak (-50% garrison dmg), makes them a bit more spammy (too easy to cover a large area), which is kind of what happened in 26.6. I would rather keep the cost as is, but add a single default arrow to make the 125 wood more worthwhile. I think it is good design to make scout towers something you get if needed when you can't fight off rushes. For example in aoe2, they talk about "forcing a tower" basically applying enough pressure to make the opponent invest in a tower for defense, therefore that money isn't invested in eco.

But I like when allies think about the bonuses as they choose their civs and both teams could run mirror if they thought one set team was OP with bonuses And again if the 2nd one wasn't able to be unlocked until p2 or even p3 you would have to get there first to see if it really made ur team OP

I always thought Rome had 3 decent heroes looks cool! agreed! Id be all for that!

I would be open to it. Don’t love or hate it. Could be hard to balance. We’re not the first ones to note that the game cadence leaves something to be desired. P2 fights are rarely worth it. Having a hero would help. Don’t know what you mean. 1. Do you mean keep each civ’s current three heroes become available at different phases? That would lead to huge balance issues because some civs have multiple good heroes while others have only one or less (I think this is a problem in and of itself—I think each hero should be more or less as good as any other hero). The idea itself is fine, though. 2. Do you mean we create a bunch of new heroes to be available in p1 and p2? That sounds hard to implement. We already struggle to find 3 good heroes for every civ. The idea itself is fine, though. 3. Would this mean that you can get multiple heroes at once? I love that idea. Might be a good cov bonus too 4. Something else?

What do you think about putting Heroes in @Village or Town phase? A little more integral to the course of the game. Or maybe 1 hero in Village, 1 hero in Town, 1 hero in City.