Changing boat fighting

[Lion.Kanzen]

25 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

some mediterranean civs (which imparts an added metal cost). I think it should also only be possible for certain ship classes, perhaps only triremes, ie ships of the "heavy" class for the following reasons. 1) biremes would probably be too light to ram well, 2)siege ships are too valuable to use this way, 3) most importantly, players need to be able to anticipate what ships can ram them

 There should be various class and upgrades.

Within the sub class there should be trireme and within this trireme with catapult.(siege trireme)

[real_tabasco_sauce]

right, but wouldn't there need to be a way for a player to know if they are up against ramming triremes or non-ramming triremes.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

any ideas @Lion.Kanzen for a couple other "special" ships, I thought about some kind of bolt shooter ship, a variant of the siege ship with a little more speed and bolt shooter style attack.

[Lion.Kanzen]

18 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

any ideas @Lion.Kanzen for a couple other "special" ships, I thought about some kind of bolt shooter ship, a variant of the siege ship with a little more speed and bolt shooter style attack.

 how everything in life requires an investigation so as not to leave anything out.

I'm going to do a naval post on history.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone How should we proceed with the tasks to make tickets?

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

any ideas @Lion.Kanzen for a couple other "special" ships, I thought about some kind of bolt shooter ship, a variant of the siege ship with a little more speed and bolt shooter style attack.

Now I am going to answer you. the problem is the same as with towers.

Those ships must have equivalents in civilizations without said ships.

You have to have an incendiary ship. These ships are taken from AoE I, AoM and AoE IV classes.

It's almost like rock, paper, scissors, but without the counters.

River boat, which could be equivalent to the scout ship from the first AoE.

Arrow ships: Then there are the classes that go in sizes, the ships that fire projectiles and serve as transport. Light-Medium and Heavy war vessels armed with a crew of archers. (according to the civ these can do ramming)In this go the triremes and medium ships like those of the Gauls.

 

 Fire Ships/ Demolition Ship:  in Age of Empires III is a suicide unit, a Caravel lit on fire. It rams itself into enemy buildings or ships. according to AoE IV : Small ship packed with explosives. Detonates when killed, damaging any units in the area, and setting fire to nearby ships and structures.

Juggernaut: finally Fortress or  very heavy ship those are rare to see. They already come with the catapults included.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

The difference is that ships can have upgrades like an overhaul.

It depends on the size. They can house siege engines and civilization can ramming.

If needed, the lighter ones will be converted into suicide boats.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

yes, I am familiar with the AOE ship system. Fire ships basically serve as melee units in AOE naval battles, the system is simple but entertaining enough to make water fights interesting.

The problem is I can't think of an appropriate close-range ship in the 0ad timeframe. Also, it may not be necessary to try something like that.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

so you are suggesting training ships on a basic level, light, heavy, scout etcetera, but they can be upgraded individually into other forms of the ship? ex. trireme -> ramming trireme or bireme -> fire ship?

interesting suggestion.

[Lion.Kanzen]

25 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

yes, I am familiar with the AOE ship system. Fire ships basically serve as melee units in AOE naval battles, the system is simple but entertaining enough to make water fights interesting.

The problem is I can't think of an appropriate close-range ship in the 0ad timeframe. Also, it may not be necessary to try something like that.

That can be done with boarding technology.

To compensate for their lack of nautical expertise, however, the Romans introduced a technical innovation that exploited their legionaries’ aptitude for close-quarter fighting. A 12-foot pillar of wood with a pulley on the top was fitted to the prow of every vessel. To this pillar a boarding bridge was attached which could be hoisted up and swung around in the required direction. At the end of the bridge there was a large pointed spike called a COITUS which, when released, drove itself into the deck of the opposing vessel, locking the two ships together. Then the legionaries could storm aboard and slaughter the near-defenceless crews. As an example of a technical innovation which led to a precipitous reversal of battlefield superiority that had endured for centuries, the corvus outclassed all subsequent development

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

The other option is ramming and that almost any rowboat can do.

The third option is for fire ships to spread fire to another ship.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

22 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

so you are suggesting training ships on a basic level, light, heavy, scout etcetera, but they can be upgraded individually into other forms of the ship? ex. trireme -> ramming trireme or bireme -> fire ship?

interesting suggestion.

that makes it versatile. and strategic and even surprising.

[Lion.Kanzen]

the best mechanic I saw was in Rise and Fall Civs at War.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxOmDf6U0QXIK8FW3dJvM3jiQHATGM6j18 

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx90WIfe-iqcStL_Sh_lKtbC84B1rz6nSA

 

 

It's a cutout I made of the clip.

From this video.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen

[real_tabasco_sauce]

haha yes, some kind of boarding mechanism would be an awesome feature in 0ad. But I am sure it would be very,  very difficult to make that happen, especially considering the animations required. Also, I imagine even giving ships turret points would be difficult task, as in that case you have to make compromises in terms of the ship's size compared to the units occupying the turrets.

now, one way to simplify the above task to fit 0ad's scope could be to give whatever ship does the "boarding" a capture attack, with some constraints. Even in that case, you already have plenty of conditions/concerns: Does capture attack depend on units garrisoned? should capture be a "recharge" ability? What ships can capture, what civs have access to this ability? How do you stop both ships? Will this be frustrating to players? (likely yes)

one concern is that "boarding" could gamble on what units the enemy's ship has garrisoned. I am not sure if this would be good or bad.

Don't get me wrong, I do not dislike the idea, it is just that the implementation and balancing both sound difficult.

Edited October 28, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Lion.Kanzen]

23 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

haha yes, some kind of boarding mechanism would be an awesome feature in 0ad. But I am sure it would be very,  very difficult to make that happen, especially considering the animations required

a simple and fast implementation can be done in the meantime.

Simulate the combat in a simple way similar to how the capture of the buildings is simulated, but with the stats of the melee units.

Basically the crew how much all the damage and armor they have vs the other crew.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think we all have read or heard the good ideas to make ship combat better. But to get started, I think the warships just need stripped down to the bare minimum and made usable again. Shrink up their size as I previously suggested, then make them behave and fight in simple logical ways. Make them useful and fun again. 

Then start adding the other features if they're warranted. I feel ramming would be easiest to implement since we want charging and secondary attack features for land units already. Even capturing could possibly be a secondary attack.

So, until we even have those features for land units committed to the game, warships should be brought back to basics as I outlined above and elsewhere. Once those features are added for land units, then it will be easier to figure out how they can apply to ships.

Edited October 29, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Darkcity]

One point i wanted to highlight is pathfinding problems with boats when you selection some units and garrsion in the boat.

Context: I select a ship doc it at a shore. Now i select some units standing a little further from the ship. When I give garrsion command to units, ship also starts to move.

Problem: It take too much effort to doc a ship perfectly on shore becasue it moves here and there for its path finding. Now, when I do garrsioning, it moves to some different location. The ships either will standing somewhere far from the shore or it is going somewhere (game knows where). Becasue of this issue I can't garrion my units, they either doing their own path finding to find the ship or stuck at shore becasue they can't reach ship.

Gameplay issues: You won't be able to garrision units, becasue ships get stuck to each other and when they start to move own their own , its hard to manage.

Solution:

1. Just don't move the ship. Move units only when given garrion command. If ship is far then it is far, try to bring closer to shore.
2. Give square geometry (analogy for solution) for garrion so, whether ship is stright or left faced or right faced to units, they should be able to garrion.

I understand that some player might want ship doing pathfinding as well. So, maybe we can keep it cofigurable with defualt value is keeping ship path finding on.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Darkcity

[real_tabasco_sauce]

potential sources of inspiration for some units.

I think it's fair to say that boarding vessels was a very common approach, so there might be some benefit to using 0ad's own capturing mechanic. Maybe on all ships, or some class of ships designated as boarding vessels.

This would mean all ships may be captured and either all ships can capture or select ship types can capture. In this case, one could give ships fairly low capture points so that land units could capture a neglected ship used for landing.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

33 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

potential sources of inspiration for some units.

 

hmmm.... Ports vs. Shipyards. Sounds like a popular 0 A.D. mod.

[Radagast.]

On 05/07/2022 at 6:34 PM, Darkcity said:

O1: 2. Unit position: Since max 10 units can add arrow to the boat. 5 units will be 1 side of the boat while 5 will be other side of the boat rest in center. Only side units can attack or can be attacked.

Position handling sounds micro, complicated.

Not fan of units adding arrows. Prefer your O2 More realistic. Allows more friction. (cannons may be different, but here is about arrows?)

 

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O1: 3. Unit Shuffling: In case units on side (attaking unit dies) then unit in center unit (no attacking unit) will occupy his space. This way all units in the boat are useful unlike present where 30 units in the boat are same as 10 on water.

In future won't be useless. But yes: Units are generally useless if not close enough for effective damage Max range in reality is not the decisive factor!
 

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O2: Treat the boat area as a normal surface where garrsioned units are standing and they will attack anything in range and can be attacked. To attack the boat player has to mention sepcifically just like walls.

Agree. Player or his officers You remember when the women sunk the ship while men fled battle? Unfortunately was their own ship Officers make mistake - or you yourself and your generals save you

Balances pitched battles automatically. Overall strategy becomes more important:

• Prelude (location, supplies, army composition, ...)
• Decisions (how to engage, pre-arranged tactics, dynamic reaction to events, ...

=> More overarching but you can also micro if want to: As you mentioned e.g. directly order to target boat structure instead of crew. In Ancient times this will mean ramming. Cannons in newer?

This req new attack types. Or reuse: attack (for closing in and ramming + boarding if crew not defensive stance?) vs. attack move (keep distance i.e. keep moving, only range attack)

 

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AO: 1. Reduce pop taken to 1. First 2 unit will add to boat speed. Speed logic will be current speed*x/3, where x<=2 , and is the number of units garriosned in the boat.

Yes. Prefer weight. Armor, horse or ram heavier than infantry or civilian.

Maybe better influence accel instead of speed:

Empty boat => no acceleration
Min crew => No spare for fighting => Either accelerate or fight

If velocity > 0 then ship can still steer (can be handled by 1 crew member even if the others fight e.g. the ore guys). 1 pop for steering by captain? Works with wind, but no directed acceleration boats will go like baloon where the gods take them

[Obelix]

On 31/8/2022 at 10:41 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

This is a very good idea.

I created two familiar tickets, but none for temple ships (I am not completly convinced yet).

• #6731 In Ships: Garrisoned priests should heal other garrisoned units [got an “nice to have” and “backlog”]
• #6732 New temple tech for self healing while being garrisoned in a ship [got closed, bc already implemented by “unit regeneration” tech]

Edited February 10, 2023 by Obelix
Changes in tickets