Javelin and Slinger damage too high.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

18 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Do you mean let the infantry sprint like cavalry? this is a good idea. And it seems like it could be used as a trait to enhance Celtic infantry, increasing the speed of their charge.

Yes, a charge speed that happens automatically. Once the Spearman gets within 20 meters of the enemy soldier he goes into charge speed. I'd say maybe limit it to units tasked by the player?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Yes, a charge speed that happens automatically. Once the Spearman gets within 20 meters of the enemy soldier he goes into charge speed. I'd say maybe limit it to units tasked by the player?

Yes, I think something like this would be great! What would be done about shift clicking multiple units in a row, and abusing the charge for dancing? (pikes charge back and forth between a some enemies for example)

Edited February 26, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[AIEND]

3 分钟前，real_tabasco_sauce 说：

增加近战生命值/护甲只会减少护盾远程单位所需的近战数量。 近战仍然会先死。

It is good to only increase the protection against long-range attacks, so that the side with more spearmen does not have to be too afraid of the enemy's stronger firepower, and calmly annihilate the enemy spearmen. Or assign a part of the spearmen to expel and destroy the enemy's ranged infantry.

[AIEND]

11 分钟前，wowgetoffyourcellphone 说：

是的，自动发生的充电速度。 一旦矛兵进入敌方士兵 20 米范围内，他就会进入冲锋速度。 我会说也许将它限制在玩家指定的单位？

With the exception of the Pikeman, the other Melee Soldiers seem to be good at sprinting. And I think on this basis, it is possible to add a faction feature that allows the Celtic infantry to sprint at a greater distance and at a faster speed than the infantry of other ethnic groups.

[faction02]

9 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think mechanics can win the day. I think melee infantry can still have a slower base speed, but they "sprint" over the last 20 meters to (unit) target.

I would also much rather see changes to the game mechanic as an  incentive to affect the gameplay too. On the topic, I would also enjoy seeing surrounding or flanking maneuver more effective/easier to implement as a way to increase the share of melee units in the army composition.

Formations can currently be abused to work against any attempt to flank the enemy ranged units. If someone click "square formation", he can trigger a sprint of his melee units to protect his ranged units from any side. One can also use formation to get his ranged units to sprint away, by simply grouping them in a formation with some other units further away (often the reinforcements).

I was wondering if the capacity to trigger sprints through formation make sense (I don't see a benefit of it but I can see how it is abused). Maybe it could make sense to remove the sprint part that units do to get into formation, or at least make them start their sprint only when they are very close to their final destination?

Edited February 26, 2022 by faction02

[Freagarach]

19 hours ago, faction02 said:

I was wondering if the capacity to trigger sprints through formation make sense (I don't see a benefit of it but I can see how it is abused). Maybe it could make sense to remove the sprint part that units do to get into formation, or at least make them start their sprint only when they are very close to their final destination?

I guess it would make formations hard to use if one needs to manually keep everyone together and stragglers won't catch up by themselves.

[faction02]

5 hours ago, Freagarach said:

I guess it would make formations hard to use if one needs to manually keep everyone together and stragglers won't catch up by themselves.

I completely understand that putting in place formation is not easy and I don't know  how they are thought to work in the future but currently, creating a formation give a benefit since it trigger running, but the formation itself doesn't have much interest (except to trigger more running).  They are often used as a "double-click feature", click to trigger a sprint, once the sprint is over, remove them. I would rather think of them as working the other way around, the process of setting up the formation is costly but once units are in formation, they gain some advantages. The cost of setting them up would then be compensated by the advantage gained when units are in the formation.

If there could be a middle ground to be found between making formations too hard to use and preventing them from being used as a "trigger run" command, that would be great.

 

[Alar1k]

First of all - as it was said - ranged units were devastating and therefore why they were used in the first place - for me as I see it it should not be "why are my spearmen so weak vs range" but "why I don't have cavalry to flank ranged units?"

Calvary exists for a reason and if you exclude them from the equation you will make poor balance. Nobody is complaining that cavalry is dying like flies when spears/pikes hit but when ranged units actually counter, in my honest opinion they should counter, then there is "omg nerf them" - make cavalry do 1,5x bonus damage to ranged units like the spears/pikes have against cavalry units

- it's like rock/paper/scissors and ranged units are rock, cavalry is paper, spears/pikes are scissors

Don't see people complaining how spears/pikes shred through cav when they encounter them since it's only logical they would be hard countered - apply the same logic for ranged/infantry and voila

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 hours ago, Alar1k said:

First of all - as it was said - ranged units were devastating and therefore why they were used in the first place - for me as I see it it should not be "why are my spearmen so weak vs range" but "why I don't have cavalry to flank ranged units?"

Calvary exists for a reason and if you exclude them from the equation you will make poor balance. Nobody is complaining that cavalry is dying like flies when spears/pikes hit but when ranged units actually counter, in my honest opinion they should counter, then there is "omg nerf them" - make cavalry do 1,5x bonus damage to ranged units like the spears/pikes have against cavalry units

- it's like rock/paper/scissors and ranged units are rock, cavalry is paper, spears/pikes are scissors

Don't see people complaining how spears/pikes shred through cav when they encounter them since it's only logical they would be hard countered - apply the same logic for ranged/infantry and voila

I mean you like hard counters. I like hard counters. Other people don't like hard counters even though they fix a lot of problems.

[LetswaveaBook]

12 hours ago, Alar1k said:

make cavalry do 1,5x bonus damage to ranged units like the spears/pikes have against cavalry units

- it's like rock/paper/scissors and ranged units are rock, cavalry is paper, spears/pikes are scissors

Don't see people complaining how spears/pikes shred through cav when they encounter them since it's only logical they would be hard countered - apply the same logic for ranged/infantry and voila

For a rock-paper scissors system, you need only to give a multiplier to a single unit, illustrated by the following example:

-Unit A has a raw power of 8 and a 2x multiplier against unit C

-Unit B has a raw power of 10

-Unit C has a raw power of 12.

 

Out of the melee citizen cavalry, I would consider sword cavalry a good counter against slingers and infantry skirmishers. Only Athens, Britons, Gauls and Mauryas have access to them (Though melee merc cav is also good against ranged infantry). This means many faction don't get the unit that seems supposed to defeat the slinger and infantry javelineer.

 

Also I think the number should be tweaked such that melee infantry is the dominant force.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

13 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

-Unit A has a raw power of 8 and a 2x multiplier against unit C

-Unit B has a raw power of 10

-Unit C has a raw power of 12.

The problem is there are units D, E, F, and G, plus structures ABGWFHJYT, etc.

 

14 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Also I think the number should be tweaked such that melee infantry is the dominant force.

Let's do this for Alpha 27.

[Alar1k]

9 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

For a rock-paper scissors system, you need only to give a multiplier to a single unit, illustrated by the following example:

-Unit A has a raw power of 8 and a 2x multiplier against unit C

-Unit B has a raw power of 10

-Unit C has a raw power of 12.

 

Out of the melee citizen cavalry, I would consider sword cavalry a good counter against slingers and infantry skirmishers. Only Athens, Britons, Gauls and Mauryas have access to them (Though melee merc cav is also good against ranged infantry). This means many faction don't get the unit that seems supposed to defeat the slinger and infantry javelineer.

 

Also I think the number should be tweaked such that melee infantry is the dominant force.

Well since all civilizations have some form of melee cavalry why not just buff melee cav against ranged units in general - like give them +1 pierce damage armour  (maybe they don't even need an attack buff if they can survive just a bit longer against ranged units, and +1 pierce would help spear cav against ranged cav as well) and give spear cav at least 2x against other cav on top of +1 pierce armour since they really really need to be able to deal with other cav more efficiently and that damage buff wouldn't still make them op against spear/pike infantry

 

Edit: I wouldn't really nerf ranged troops too much - I'm more fan of mixing troops then relying only on one type - be it melee or ranged. (and ratio 30-70 in favour of range really makes sense since ranged units don't need a pathfinder around other adjacent units in the middle of the fight - if you have too many melee half of your units are useless until some die and they take their place - just like too many units on a build order

Edited March 21, 2022 by Alar1k