Interesting Thing About Units

[SUD]

I found this news headline at AOKH that you might like and find useful for 0ad:

--------------------------

Instant Kills in AoE III?

Posted on November 4, 2003 2:05PM by Aro

Clam_Knight posted about an interesting idea he came up with in the Age of Empires III Discussions forum that would increase the realism in a new game by ES.

this idea, would be like, a unit could sometimes perform an "instant kill" attack, in which it would kill the opposing unit instantly. The chance of an "instant kill" would vary from unit to unit...here's an example

-An archer would have like 1/500 chances of "instant killing" a Paladin, where as a longbowman might be like 1/300, and a halberdier would be like 1/150 or something.

The units would still have there HP, but their HP could be completly depleated with the "instant kill". Also, certain units would have a greater chance of getting or resisting an "instant kill"

Sounds to me like it'd be a good idea. To view the complete post or to leave a comment/add-on, feel free to visit the thread.

-----------------------------------

[Wijitmaker]

Yeah an idea like this was possed several months ago by Apollionos. Its very similiar to table top games (or so I've heard). Units hit points and attack use a point based system based on randomness or something like that.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I like this idea. Give every unit an instant kill action, ala myth units in AOM.

[Ulysses S Griffin]

yeah, thats what i was also thinking when ii saw this thread (the ala aom bit)

[Fire Giant]

Give every unit an instant kill action, ala myth units in AOM.

Cyclopses !

I just played a scn of the new TT campaign and killed of some 20 bowmen with a large group of cyclopses who have this instant-kill attack agains normal units

But seriously - I doubt that will make the game easier to understand for a novince player... see, ES also had the idea of having a bonus if you attack units from the back or flank them, but they took it out in order to keep the game simple and understandable.

[ElfTheHunter]

TLA's level 4 archers will have a 1% chance of instant kills. Representing Bard killing Smaug.

[Tonto_Icy_Tripod]

Gameplay vs realism

It'd be more realistic to have, no doubt, but if me and my opponent have as good armies, I want the one who's microing better to win, not the one who's getting their instant kills at the right time. This is especially important when the armies are still small (at the beginning of the game in other words), where it'll have a huge effect.

It might work, I'm just saying that there's a big chance it'll be either too complicated or make the game too dependant on luck. If you can convince me otherwise however, I'd love to see it.

[Acumen]

Thanks, Tonto_Icy_Tripod. You just saved me a post.

[Math_the_great]

I approve Tonto_icy_tripod..WE dont need a game too much dependant on luck....If it,s this you want guys just buy the game Risk

[Mythos_Ruler]

Hmm, well, my response to that is:

Are we trying new concepts here? Are we trying to break new ground?

or

Are we simply Remaking AOE? Are we going to box ourselves into the RTS mold?

[Quacker]

Icy makes a good point, but IMO, some of these features need to be implemented. This is the 2nd or more good idea i've heard that i've seen someone reply "gameplay vs. realism". Yes, some of them can be done without, but since we're trying to do what little have done, i think we should seriously consider a lot of these ideas.

[ElfTheHunter]

Another thing may I note, is that neither thing must be FULLY adopted. Comprises are a great thing. Let's say, that since 0 AD units have 4 levels (or is it more? less?) then once they reach a good level, then this new feature kicks in. you can even have it smooth in from never at level 1, 1/10000 in level 2, 1/1000 in level 3 and 1/100 in level 4. This way, at the beginning of the gameplay a usual RTS concept is shown because we don't want to scare off ppl, then once they understand the game well, they realize new things are becoming apparant, and hopefully like them

Not saying it should be done, just that it could... And I agree that this should be considered but not so much it slows down development (or if the team has already disscussed it)

[Quacker]

I like that idea, but lets change it abit. Instead of levels, how about only "Elite" units (as noted by concept art) can get the instant kill attribute?

[Mythos_Ruler]

The "Elite Unit" idea sounds good to me! Good compromise.

[Tonto_Icy_Tripod]

As long as you can remove it from the small battles, it's good. It would be a good reason to upgrade your units too actually.

*thinks this could be given to some specific units, sorta like UUs in aok*

[Render]

I've always wanted to see an RTS game where the units fight with many different moves like in a fighting game. AI issues would make the time needed to program this an impractical Idea for 0ad however.

[Ulysses S Griffin]

in the game Battle Realms, units do all the cool martial arts animations when fighting

[Tonto_Icy_Tripod]

There are several different moves for units in aom as well. Something like 2 or 3 per unit I think.

[Fire Giant]

There are several different moves for units in aom as well. Something like 2 or 3 per unit I think.

Yepp, most units have several attack-anim - but not all. The are simply selected randomly when attacking an enemy.

[ZeZar]

Ye, Battle Realms is cool. Also, Battle for Middle Earth promised this. They said that units should act, like they where living, if a troll got hit by an arrow, it scream out of pain, more arrows coming, its gets mad and attack everybody around it!

I think there should be intant kill all the way (means that it would be real, a sword that hits, kills at once), "Discussed this before here havent we" depending on distance and stuff. Units must be cheap then....

[EKen132]

Well, if the pop limit is 150, that wouldn't be a great idea. If it was 150,000- go for it!

[Black Op]

I don't really like the instant kill idea that much. Why? In RTS's, I always thought of a single unit as representing more of that unit for some reason (probably due to pop. caps).

[ElfTheHunter]

Well, the reason instant kills don't exist is because HP is there to represent the unit fighting. After all you don't take turns to hit each other in battle, you block/dodge and try to live. So once we can calculate the blocking and dodging and overall fighting as well as where on the body it hits the unit (cuts the shoulder or throat) then instant kill will get closer to being implemented. That's my thoughts, I just don't think it can be well implemented yet... at least not by us.

[weaver]

I always liked the idea in games like Command and Conquer, I think it was also in Starcraft. When a unit had experienced enough battle, he was upgraded to elite/veteran etc. At this point he had increased hit points and better defense. The main thing about these experienced units was their ability to heal themselves over time.

As a bit of a side point, that to me is a very valuable feature, is the ability to heal a unit. B it with a monk or hospital, or even self healing.

Weaver

[EKen132]

The most accurate way to portray the chances of one person killing another is how it actually happened. By chance (you'll see what I mean) and all at once.

One unit fires an arrow at the other. There is a one in X (we'll say three) chance it hits him. Then there is the chance his armor broke the arrow, it was a glancing hit, or he was hit not very bad or deep. So maybe theres a one in Y (we'll say four) chance he dies. And also a chance he is injured (say each unit has Z health points, say two. This would mean he could get injured but still fight with one health point. If he was injured agian, then he would be killed, but there's always a chance he's killed right away.) This is only with arrows so far, but it can be easily done with melee weapons. Here is the chances:

1-Hit, and kill

2-Hit and injure

3-Hit and injure

4-Hit but not injure

5-Miss

6-Miss

7-Miss

8-Miss

9-Miss

10-Miss

11-Miss

12-Miss

So this system makes archers better than each other based on accuracy (most important), and the armor of the enemy. This is better than a just plain you-have-12-attack,your-oppoent-has-120-HP. And lots more realistic;).