[Poll] Armour tooltip format

[Nescio]

Currently 0 A.D.'s tooltips display both the armour level x (the internal value defined in templates and modified by technologies and auras) and the effective armour percentage (1-0.9^x). The question is whether maintaining the current situation is desirable: one could argue that the purpose of tooltips is to convey information at a glance, and the more data are displayed, the less visible each number becomes, so perhaps a simpler format for the armour values makes sense, hence this poll.

[EDIT]: Also, in which order do you prefer the health, attack, and armour tooltips to be displayed?

If you have opinions or suggestions for other options, please post here.

Related: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2247

Edited September 13, 2019 by Nescio
thread title; D2247; second question

[sphyrth]

So, the Alpha 23 displays this:

And the proposal (the one I voted for at least) looks like this:

But whatever your decision is, I'm gonna show how OCD I am regarding this:

Now, I don't know how Capture Rate, Attack Rate, Movement Speed, and Loot will fit into that, but that's just my suggestion.

[av93]

Wow, last version improves readability a lot. There was some patch to add icons instead of words, IRC

[sphyrth]

16 hours ago, av93 said:

Wow, last version improves readability a lot. There was some patch to add icons instead of words, IRC

I don't follow the SVN, so I'm curious as to what that currently looks like.

Anyway, putting words in the tooltip is fine, but icons are preferred on the Unit/Structure Box

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think tooltips should display the most important info needed for the unit's primary purpose. All other info should go into the Library or unit viewer or whatever you guys call it. lol Same for the UI. 

[wraitii]

Yeah we need to rework the tooltips for sure. Adding some grid-like structure would definitely help a ton with readability, but the flexibility of the game's system make that difficult to get right.

I think one thing we should do is take more vertical space, so that items are better separated, and then you can find the same info on the same vertical line.

You might also note that HP is actually redundant with armour somewhat, since having more armour = having more HP for that attack type.

One should find a few different cases for tooltips that are different and try and work something out that works OK for the general case.

[azayrahmad]

9 hours ago, sphyrth said:

So, the Alpha 23 displays this:

And the proposal (the one I voted for at least) looks like this:

But whatever your decision is, I'm gonna show how OCD I am regarding this:

Now, I don't know how Capture Rate, Attack Rate, Movement Speed, and Loot will fit into that, but that's just my suggestion.

I have come to think of current UI as an accepted reality, but seeing this, I know it could be improved a lot more.

Simplifying it further with icons also works well with this.

At least on the tooltip. We can have more liberty to explain what each icon means in the Detail (right click) window right? Just my two cents.

Hack, Pierce, and Crush should be replaced with icons as well, I just don't know how the icons should look like.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 hours ago, azayrahmad said:

Hack, Pierce, and Crush should be replaced with icons as well, I just don't know how the icons should look like.

I don't think tiny little armor icons will suffice. Imagine mods adding even more armor types and now you got all these tiny armor icons that mean different things. Spelling it out is fine for a tooltip. The words (at least in English) are one syllable and simple. 

I do like your simplified tooltip though. Very nice. This is the tooltip that shows up hovering over the attack icon in the UI, correct? 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[sphyrth]

I'm still concerned how "empty" this box feels.

That's why a good summary of "You don't need the tooltip to know them" info should be in there. The tooltip is only for clarification.

Asides from the fact debate "What info should be in the tooltip", there's also a concern that this suggestion is Not Modder-Friendly.

[Nescio]

5 hours ago, sphyrth said:

I'm still concerned how "empty" this box feels.

But where would the resource capacity or build time then go?

Also, what if a magic mod has e.g. a dozen damage types? Or units with several different attacks?

 

[sphyrth]

16 hours ago, Nescio said:

But where would the resource capacity or build time then go?

lol - Didn't consider that one. Good point.

Quote

Also, what if a magic mod has e.g. a dozen damage types? Or units with several different attacks?

That's why I said it's not mod-friendly.

Still, that box is a whole topic on its own. I didn't even touch upon how inconsistent it looks when choosing multiple units vs. only one unit and adding structures into that mix.

[wraitii]

At some point we need configuration files to specify what to show directly, what to show in the tooltips, what to show in the Structure Tree.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Quote

 

10% Hack

 

This completely ruins the whole point of having armor levels. I voted to maintain the current method: 1 Hack (10%)

[sphyrth]

On 9/15/2019 at 3:03 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I voted to maintain the current method: 1 Hack (10%)

BTW - I never understood those numbers. What do they mean?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Each level decreases damage received by 10%.

If armor is at level 1 (10%), then a 10 hack attack will cause 9 damage. Adding 1 more level of armor to level 2 will reduce this damage taken by 10%, or 0.9 hack. To do this, the armor is not increased by a base 10%, to 20%, but to 19%. 

[Nescio]

7 hours ago, sphyrth said:

BTW - I never understood those numbers. What do they mean?

See opening post:

On 9/13/2019 at 2:30 PM, Nescio said:

Currently 0 A.D.'s tooltips display both the armour level x (the internal value defined in templates and modified by technologies and auras) and the effective armour percentage (1-0.9^x).

The question is whether a typical player is really interested in knowing the level, or only in the resulting percentage.

[sphyrth]

12 hours ago, Nescio said:

The question is whether a typical player is really interested in knowing the level, or only in the resulting percentage.

If I were to make a preference:
Base + (All Bonuses Computed)

[azayrahmad]

If I understood this correctly, the percentage is the final result, therefore it is the one that should be displayed in the tooltip. The base level and other things could be elaborated more in right click detail. Tooltip should not make player think too much.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The thing is, the techs go by levels, not percentage. That's why both are displayed in the tooltip. And additional level applied to different units is not the same percentage change.

[Nescio]

7 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The thing is, the techs go by levels, not percentage. That's why both are displayed in the tooltip. And additional level applied to different units is not the same percentage change.

Yes, but is it really a problem for ordinary players if the technology tooltips says “+1 armour level” and the unit tooltip then only displays the resulting percentage? E.g. the resource gather rates displayed in the tooltip are also not exactly the same as the resource gather rates modified by technologies?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

+1 armor level is not the same as +10% gather speed. +1 armor level can mean +9% armor, +10% armor, or +6.7% armor depending on the units this tech is applying to. 

[Nescio]

Though each armour level means the entity takes 10% less damage; the percentage is merely a way to convey that information.

[sphyrth]

Whatever the case, we players rather not compute that much.