Civ: Germans (Cimbri, Suebians, Goths)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

14 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Nice. Maybe the center boss you can take from a shield already in the game? 

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Nice. Maybe the center boss you can take from a shield already in the game? 

yes but which?

[Lion.Kanzen]

I have little mistake with channel alpha. later i will fix,

[Genava55]

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Symbol Valknut?

It is a symbol associated with the Norsemen and Anglo-Saxons, from the early medieval era. The *Valknútr/Valknut is very controversial because there is a lot of modern folklore around it, most of its interpretation is based on myths. The exact signification and importance of this symbol for the Norsemen is the not known.

For the Elbe Germans, a common recurring symbol is this is one:

Other decorated items and symbols:

Spoiler

 

 

For the other patterns

Spoiler

 

Edit: for people interested in the subject, some Roman items found close to the Quadi (a rare english article on the subject):

https://dk.upce.cz/bitstream/handle/10195/67771/Jilek_2016_Roman Metal Vessels.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Edited June 2, 2019 by Genava55

[Genava55]

Objects found associated to the period of the Marcomannic wars:

Spoiler

 

Roman imports

 

 

 

[Genava55]

 Column of Marcus Aurelius

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/triumphal-column-of-marcus-aurelius-b50018f8a21b49ba9a33c6410bb29101

MATERIAL FORMS OF SELF-REPRESENTATION

https://www.academia.edu/3824652/The_Column_of_Marcus_Aurelius

The Battle Scenes on the Column of Marcus Aurelius

https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/handle/11375/15521

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Bq-RlaMX8

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Genava55

[av93]

Roster?

- Currently having evidence for: Spearman, Skirmisher, Pikeman (barbarian pikes, cool!)

The source of pikes (Not the best): http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?640460-PREVIEW-The-Suebi

 

Quote

The Speudogordoz is a unit of hard-nosed, disciplined warriors that fight together in a very dense formation, unlike most other Germanic warbands. During their years of constant battle with hostile nations, they've developed new strategies for combat and defense, and learned early to form an impenetrable skelduburgz ("shield-wall") to repel their attackers. Their chosen weapon, the speudo (pike) is a deadly and intimidating weapon with a long spearhead, which makes these warriors capable of punching through almost any type armor from great distances, and are universally feared for their abilities against cavalry formations.
Historically, the Speutogardoz naturally developed through native innovation as spear and shield tactics were refined. Their pikes were adapted to the armor and the cavalry tactics of numerous enemies. They array their spears and shields in a "fence"-like 'ash'-forest of death, supplying them perfect protection as their strong pikes reach out and menace the approaching forces. The Germanic pike was a deadly weapon with a long, 40 to 45 cm spearhead. In texts of historical warfare, they are always called 'enormous' or 'over-long' (prealonga hastas).
 

- Probably Swordsman (maybe only champ), Archer, Cav Swordman (for balance’s sake, like all civs), Slinger, Ram, Berserker.

- No Elephant nor Bolt/Stone Thrower, Cav Archer and Cav Spearman.

[Genava55]

The pikemen reference comes from the Cherusci Chatti, not a suebian tribe. EB2 is kinda falling for the same trouble than other games, filling the gaps in knowledge with other references from other tribes and other time-frames. 

Here:

Spoiler

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Genava55
Correction

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Genava55 How can you interpret that symbol? with various colors or monochromatic.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, av93 said:

Roster?

- Currently having evidence for: Spearman, Skirmisher, Pikeman (barbarian pikes, cool!)

The source of pikes (Not the best): http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?640460-PREVIEW-The-Suebi

 

 

 I read before about that pikes.. but were from Alpine regions.

Quote

While pikes were reserved for more "civilized" nations, Tacitus describes some members of the Germanic nations as fighting in a shield wall with long spears, as opposed to their Celtic cousins. It is more than likely that the Germans picked up the use of the long spear from the Celtic tribes in the Alpine regions, who were known for their tightly packed formations and highly effective spearmen.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?650524-Germanic-Preview

in controversial mod EB. appears as. Appea Gaedotos.

Quote

The alpine tribes experienced a great deal of influence from the Hellenes and Italians. The Appea Gaedotos (Ap-ee-ah Guy-doo-tos; "Spear Carriers") use a type of spear wall, and carry a very bizarre shield, as well as a battle axe for close combat fighting. They are solid soldiers, and should be able to stand rather well in combat, and a phalanx is always good when combatting mounted enemies, as well as defending against light infantry. In close combat, their battle axes can crush through armor, making them very capable, and they wear linen armor of Etruscan design, so they are readily able to defend themselves.

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php?mp=unit&unit=celtic infantry appea gaedotos&text=&ownership=any&class=any&category=any

Edited June 2, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Genava55]

22 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

 How can you interpret that symbol? with various colors or monochromatic.

The one I suggested before? I think that this one and this one are references to the nine worlds of the Nordic mythology, however this is only my interpretation:

Ancient Germanic mythology is kinda a black box. Mostly it is much later accounts that fill the gaps but with a lot of uncertainties

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_paganism

http://sci-hub.tw/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199232444.013.0053

[Lion.Kanzen]

i can imagine them like this. that's why ask.  monochromatic circles.

[av93]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I read before about that pikes.. but were from Alpine regions. 

IRC, that was in Cimbrian wars, were Cimbrians, Teutons and Celts fought Romans in the Alps.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, av93 said:

IRC, that was in Cimbrian wars, were Cimbrians, Teutons and Celts fought Romans in the Alps.

yes, that's why is in that topic. I guess... 

 

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@Genava55 there some spheres orbiting a world, that's how it appears in modern representations. if that's so it makes more sense to me what they can represent.

The concept is circles around a other like you show before.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[av93]

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

The pikemen reference comes from the Cherusci Chatti, not a suebian tribe

Well, doing a fast reading of wikipedia seems that Suebians and Cherusci coexisted and sometimes were allies.

If the idea of the civ is doing regional units for the tribes that were under the confederation, Cherusci pikeman could be an allied unit (mercenary)

[Lion.Kanzen]

for gamewise we need ranged cavalry .

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Genava55 can be new symbols, metalmworking... shields , coins... anything  must be depicted in a shield as a draw or as metal working ornamental shield.

 

 

[Genava55]

32 minutes ago, av93 said:

Well, doing a fast reading of wikipedia seems that Suebians and Cherusci coexisted and sometimes were allies.

Coexisted does not mean anything but yes, we can make other germanic groups as regional units. No problem with this, it should be only specified to not spread misinformation. For honesty.

23 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

for gamewise we need ranged cavalry .

Rhine-Weser Germans served often as auxiliaries for the Roman army. So cavalry as well.

[Lion.Kanzen]

about some Alliances and disagrees between Germanics. 

Quote

After the death of Drusus, the Cherusci annihilated three legions at the Battle of Teutoburg Forest and thereafter "... the empire ... was checked on the banks of the Rhine." While elements of the Suevi may have been involved, this was an alliance mainly made up of non-Suebic tribes from northwestern Germany, the Cherusci, Marsi, Chatti, Bructeri, Chauci, and Sicambri. The kingdom of the Marcomanni and their allies stayed out of the conflict and when Maroboduus was sent the head of the defeated Roman leader Varus, he sent it on to Rome for burial. Within his own alliance were various Suebic peoples, Hermunduri, Quadi, Semnones, Lugii, Zumi, Butones, Mugilones, Sibini and Langobards.

Quote

Subsequently, Augustus placed Germanicus, the son of Drusus, in charge of the forces of the Rhine and he, after dealing with a mutiny among his troops, proceeded against the Cherusci and their allies, breaking their power finally at the battle of Idistavisus, a plain on the Weser. All eight legions and supporting units of Gauls were required in order to accomplish this.[51] Germanicus' zeal led finally to his being replaced (17 AD) by his cousin Drusus, Tiberius' son, as Tiberius thought it best to follow his predecessor's policy of limiting the empire. Germanicus certainly would have involved the Suebi, with unpredictable results.[49]

Arminius, leader of the Cherusci and allies, now had a free hand. He accused Maroboduus of hiding in the Hercynian Forest while the other Germans fought for freedom, and of being the only king among the Germans. The two groups "turned their arms against each other." The Suebic Semnones and Langobardi rebelled against their king and went over to the Cherusci. Left with only the Marcomanni and Herminius' uncle, who had defected, Maroboduus appealed to Drusus, now governor of Illyricum, and was given only a pretext of aid.[52]

The resulting battle was indecisive but Maroboduus withdrew to Bohemia and sent for assistance to Tiberius. He was refused on the grounds that he had not moved to help Varus. Drusus encouraged the Germans to finish him off. A force of Goths under Catualda, a Marcomannian exile, bought off the nobles and seized the palace. Maroboduus escaped to Noricum and the Romans offered him refuge in Ravenna where he remained the rest of his life.[53] He died in 37 AD. After his expulsion the leadership of the Marcomanni was contested by their Suebic neighbours and allies, the Hermunduri and Quadi.

 

[av93]

Yeah. But I was looking into this paragraph specifically:

Spoiler

Florus (c. 74 AD – c. 130 AD), gives a more detailed view of the operations of 9 BC. He reports that the Cherusci, Suebi and Sicambri formed an alliance by crucifying twenty Roman centurions, but that Drusus defeated them, confiscated their plunder and sold them into slavery.^[48] Presumably only the war party was sold, as the Suebi continue to appear in the ancient sources.

 

48 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Coexisted does not mean anything but yes, we can make other germanic groups as regional units. No problem with this, it should be only specified to not spread misinformation. For honesty. 

 

Well, I was thinking about groups of the Suebian confederation -> regional standard unit

Neighbors or Allies -> mercenaries.

 

Is a way to have mercenaries and have fuller rooster in the barbarian civs. Think the metal cost as part of the alliance and deals, or something like this. Also, the name would be something like "Cherusci Allied Pikeman" in the same way of "Italian Allied Cavalry" of Romans. Other units would be just the demonym of the tribe + Class

Edited June 2, 2019 by av93

[tlauick_19]

[Lion.Kanzen]

@tlauick_19 algunas unidades son de después del siglo primero después de Cristo. según entiendo este enfoque es desde Ariovisto a las guerras romanas de Gérmanico, antes de las Guerras Dacias y Marcomanas.

Spoiler

 

 

 

.

[Genava55]

21 hours ago, av93 said:

Well, I was thinking about groups of the Suebian confederation -> regional standard unit

Neighbors or Allies -> mercenaries.

 

Is a way to have mercenaries and have fuller rooster in the barbarian civs. Think the metal cost as part of the alliance and deals, or something like this. Also, the name would be something like "Cherusci Allied Pikeman" in the same way of "Italian Allied Cavalry" of Romans. Other units would be just the demonym of the tribe + Class

I agree with this.

It means basically a roster for the Suebi with a Spearman using the framae (polyvalent spear), Skirmisher with barbed javelins, Infantryman with wooden clubs, Champion unit with heavy spearhead and/or Germanic swords, Slinger, a Champion melee cavalry.

Regional and allied units could be the Cherusci pikeman, the Harii Night-Ambusher, the Lugian heavy swordsman, the short-swordsmen with round shield from Lemovii and Rugii tribes, the Batavi or the Tencteri cavalry, Chatti veteran infantryman (with shaved faces), Aestii axe female warrior etc. etc.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

I agree with this.

It means basically a roster for the Suebi with a Spearman using the framae (polyvalent spear), Skirmisher with barbed javelins, Infantryman with wooden clubs, Champion unit with heavy spearhead and/or Germanic swords, Slinger, a Champion melee cavalry.

Regional and allied units could be the Cherusci pikeman, the Harii Night-Ambusher, the Lugian heavy swordsman, the short-swordsmen with round shield from Lemovii and Rugii tribes, the Batavi or the Tencteri cavalry, Chatti veteran infantryman (with shaved faces), Aestii axe female warrior etc. etc.

 

not archers?

[Genava55]

12 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

not archers?

It seems to be something used later:

http://sci-hub.tw/https://www.jstor.org/stable/650090

The only place where I find early indications of arrows and bows is in North Denmark and Southern Sweden. So if you want to add an archer, you can do it through a regional unit (Cimbri or Suiones).

Edited June 4, 2019 by Genava55

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Updated first post. Extended this thread to include Suebians and Goths. 

Suebians represent an early German faction (they can fight the Principate Romans), while the Goths represent a later German faction (they can fight the Dominate Romans).

If we eventually add the Thracians and Dacians, I think we're representing the European "barbarians" rather well (maybe split the Lusitanians off from the Iberians and add the Illyrians?).

Regardless, I have committed a few "placeholder" assets for the Suebian Germans and the Gothic Germans.  

Edited June 30, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone