Finishing the Seleucid Faction ideas

[Stan`]

He said he is busy but he will try to comeback.

[Andrettin]

The UV map of the dude models is so bad. I can't wait for the new meshes to come to power.

There are going to be new male human meshes? Nice!

[niektb]

Yeah, Andrettin, since almost a year ago: http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19289

[Andrettin]

Yeah, Andrettin, since almost a year ago: http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19289

Ah yes, I recall reading that now. Oops

[Phalanx]

Trying to. lol

Sorry for being a pit pushy and pesky. I'm just trying to throw ideas on the table for developers to pick and choose. I apologize.

Edited October 29, 2015 by SeleucidKing

[Phalanx]

No I did not see him.

Okay, Seleucid soldier units, I think can go this way (underline mean soldier need new texture or models or both):

Civic Center

• Militia Thureos Spearman: Thureophóros Politès
• Militia Skirmish Cavalry: Hippakontistès Politès

Military Colony (has "Syrian Tetrapolis" upgrade)

• Syrian Archer: Toxótēs Syrías
• Macedonian Settler Cavalry: Hippeus Makedonikos

Barracks

• "Bronze Shield" Pike Infantry: Phalangitès Khalkaspides (has "Gold Shield" upgrade)
• Thureos Skirmisher: Thureophóros Akontistès
• Companion Heavy Cavalry: Hippos Hetairike (has "Agema" upgrade)
• Median Light Cavalry: Hippeus Medikos

Mercenary Camp

• Thracian Swordsman: Rhomphaiaphoros Thrakikós
• Arab Tribal Skirmisher: Pezakontistès Arabikós
• Cretan Archer: Toxótēs Krētikós
• Galatian Sword Cavalry
• Tarentine Medium Cavalry
• Dahae Horse Archer

Fortress

• Traditional Army
  • "Silver Shield" Pike Infantry: Phalangitès Argyraspides
  • Scythed Chariot: Drepanèphoros
• Reform Army
  • Romanized Heavy Swordsman: Thorakitès Rhomaïkós
  • Seleucid Cataphract: Seleukidón Kataphraktos
• Armored War Elephant: Thorakisménos Eléphantos
• Siege Catapult: Lithóbolos
• Siege Tower: Helépolis

Absolutely gorgeous! Is there anything I can do to help put this in action? Great work, I'm so impressed!

[Stan`]

Well we need solid graphical references for the armors and anything that needs to be done.

[Phalanx]

This is a light tarantine cavalryman. The elite version should have a linothorax.

Edited October 29, 2015 by SeleucidKing

[Phalanx]

Roman auxilirary Syrian archer, but the next one would be more Seleucid.

[Phalanx]

Both of these work for the Arabian Tribal Skirmisher.

This is the most popular depiction of the Seleucid scythed chariot.

[Phalanx]

The Seleucids were famous for their use of the cataphractine elephant.

[Phalanx]

The most famous depection of the hellenistic heliopolis.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Roman auxilirary Syrian archer, but the next one would be more Seleucid.

I'm not sure with the Siryan archer, the first version is Roman Syrian archer in second century AD.

The second a reference by a mod. If the mod have good source for this,mist possible but we need se how look the archer under Seleucid.

[Phalanx]

I'm not sure with the Siryan archer, the first version is Roman Syrian archer in second century AD.

The second a reference by a mod. If the mod have good source for this,mist possible but we need se how look the archer under Seleucid.

So, a better reference? Unfortunately, most of the reference pictures that aren't Rome I mods are of Roman auxiliaries.

EDIT: it seems to me that if we just give it a combination of middle eastern/ hellenistic armour that we already have, it'll be fine.

Edited October 29, 2015 by SeleucidKing

[Lion.Kanzen]

Source

https://deadliestblogpage.wordpress.com/2013/12/04/armies-of-the-macedonian-successor-states-the-seleucids/

I prefer Cretan archer by now

During the early years of the reign of Demetrius II (circa 147BC) the king was dominated by (and a virtual puppet of) the captain of his Cretan mercenaries, the former pirate, Lasthenes. For five years the mercenaries terrorized and looted the country (“The Cretan Terror”). The citizens of Antioch rose in a doomed attempt to throw out the foreigners. In bloody street fighting thousands of Antiochenes were killed by the Cretan (and Jewish) mercenaries. Much of the city was destroyed, and the Cretans took reprisals against all who had resisted them.

However, Lasthenes overreached in the end : He attempted to disband the regular and reserve troops of the army. This led to a revolt by the general Diodotus Tryphon; who, with the support of many units, raised the infant son of a former king, Alexander Balas, to the throne. Demetrius and his Cretans were thrown-out of Antioch; Demetrius going east to fight the Parthians, the mercenaries departing the country.

The Cretan Terror showed the Seleucids what others were to learn throughout history: mercenaries in small numbers make good servants; but when in the majority make a bad and dangerous master!

As noted above, Judean mercenaries were also much prized; by both the Ptolemies and the Seleucids. This was at least in part due to the notable lack of love the Jews had for the local (Gentile) populations of these kingdoms. Their loyalty was strictly to their paymaster, and they had no compunction in using brutal force against the civilian population if called upon to crush dissent. Judeans fought as slingers and thureophoroi; and had a doughty reputation as fierce fighters.

Following the rising of the citizens of Antioch against the Cretans, and the subsequent sack of the city by the mercenaries, the Judean mercenaries carried a vast fortune in loot back to Judea. When the Maccabee revolt broke out a few years later, it may well have maccabeans been (in part) inspired by the weakness these returned Judean mercenaries related concerning the decayed state of their Seleucid masters. Their service as mercenaries in Ptolemaic and Seleucid service gave many Jews the necessary military experience and knowledge of Hellenistic methods to fight and, at times, defeat the forces the Seleucid government sent against them.

Light infantry and cavalry were often recruited from the frontiers of the Empire. Arab dromedary troops, Saka horse archers, fierce javelineers from the southern mountains of Anatolia (Psidians and Lycians), and many other wild tribesmen from the untamed regions of the vast Empire were employed for various campaigns by the Seleucid kings in their long history.

[Phalanx]

Okay, so we want to use the Cretan archer instead? That'll be nice, becuase I believe the Athenians already have it.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Okay, so we want to use the Cretan archer instead? That'll be nice, becuase I believe the Athenians already have it.

not at all, I'm searching for more info, we need validate, the source says, Cretan and Jewish, in another book talk about Hamians and arameans

[Phalanx]

Well, in Demetrius's army, Cretan archers were used a LOT.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Yeah, but we need back to the past , where are from the Syrian archers...?( where in Syria?)

Reading for Delenda est mod, I found some Hamians Auxiliary...

[Lion.Kanzen]

If the Syrian Archery were Hamians from Hama, I found some little things

Hellenistic and Roman history

Aqueduct in Epiphania (= Hama).

In the second half of the 4th century BC the modern region of Syria came under the influence of Greco-Roman culture, following long lasting semitic and Persian cultures. Alexander the Great's campaign from 334 to 323 BC brought Syria under Hellenic rule. Since the country lay on the trade routes from Asia to Greece, Hama, and many other Syrian cities, again grew rich through trade. After the death of Alexander the Great his Near East conquests were divided between his generals, and Seleucus Nicator became ruler of Syria and the founder of the Seleucid dynasty. Under the Seleucids there was a revival in the fortunes of Hama. The Aramaeans were allowed to return to the city, which was renamed Epiphania[5] (in Greek: Επιφανεία), after the Seleucid Emperor Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Seleucid rule began to decline, however, in the next two centuries, and Arab dynasties began to gain control of cities in this part of Syria, including Hama

[Lion.Kanzen]

Here may I can find something

Is in Spanish later I will translate( or bilingual) , the article is about Parade of Daphane and their units.
http://www.academia.edu/6262664/El_desfile_de_Dafne._Ritual_y_exaltaci%C3%B3n_en_el_Imperio_sel%C3%A9ucida_The_Daphne_parade._Ritual_and_exaltation_in_Seleucid_Empire_
The forum don't let me paste the link, I'm on my iPad.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

What is Daphane?
But before that he (Antiochus)decided to give a dramatic scenic effect that has left us, thanks to the comments thereon of the classical sources, one of the stories about the composition of the most important ancient Seleucid army. In 167 the Roman general Emilius Paulus had celebrated his victory with a Pidna Games held in Amphipolis, this is believed to Antiochus IV decided to overcome this exhibition with a parade in honor of Apollo to be held in the Syrian city of Daphne, only a year later, although in reality it is more likely that its purpose was celebrating his victory in Egypt, the exaltation of the achievements occurred in the Sixth Syria war or preparing thus the subsequent campaign in the East, seeking to restore the cohesion of empire.

In any case, Antiochus IV hoped to use the show as a demonstration of power at international level, so that the impact was enormous both among its allies as among their enemies, and to the inhabitants of the empire. That is why the 167 had already begun sending emissaries to the various Hellenistic kingdoms in order to ensure the attendance of their representatives. The festival would be held, probably in summer, although it discusses the exact date, and started with a big military parade, where all units that made up the Seleucid army at that time were, wearing their best clothes. The record of this event forms one of the most valuable for the study at hand sources, not only unusual, but also by its size and symbolism.


Infantry - Romanized 5,000 soldiers, 5,000 Mysians, 3,000 light infantry Cilicians 3,000 5,000 Thracians and Gauls, with 20,000 macedonians( from Greece), 5000 chalkaspides and an undetermined number of argyraspides (do not know how many but in the battle of Raphia in 217 Polybius tells us They are involving 10,000 men chosen from all over the kingdom and the Macedonian armed way, most of them argyraspides). Making a total of over 46,000 troops. Cavalry - Nissean 1,000 riders, horsemen 3,000 citizens, 1,000 partners, 1,000, 1,000 chosen horsemen, 1,000 of the 1,500 cataphracts Agema. Total 9,500. Other units - 100 carts six horses, 40 chariots with four horses, one chariot drawn by four elephants, 1 chariot drawn by two elephants and 36 war elephants.

About some archers

Polybius does not mention any details, but since we know that Mysians 2,500 archers participated in the Battle of Magnesia under the orders of Antiochus III, so it is possible that these also were at, but can not be sure because it could also be of hoplites Thureophoroi or, as suggested by the fact that a quota for the command of a certain Apollonius was sent in 167 by Antiochus IV to restore order in Jerusalem, so it could not be only archers.

http://www.academia.edu/6262664/El_desfile_de_Dafne._Ritual_y_exaltaci%C3%B3n_en_el_Imperio_sel%C3%A9ucida_The_Daphne_parade._Ritual_and_exaltation_in_Seleucid_Empire_

######

Thracian mercenaries along with Mysian, Cilician, Lycian, Mysian and Vassal troops from the mountainous areas of the empire were used by Antiochus III in conjunction with Thorakitai in his storming of the Elburz range in 210 BC.^[26] The Persian and Iranian troops were most likely of a higher professional military standing than most of the other contingents, as they are seen on garrison duty throughout the empire.^[27] In the review at Daphne in 166 BC, the large numbers of allied and vassal contingents are missing. They were of doubtful reliability, usefulness and efficiency. So much so that Appian blamed them for the defeat at the Battle of Magnesia in 190 BC.^[28] The absence of auxiliaries from the army of Antiochus IV may have contributed to its strength. Making up for the loss of ethnic contingents, the army was supplemented by mercenaries, who were more experienced and better trained. The Thracian and Galatian mercenaries at Daphne would have been of good use in campaigns in the rough, hilly terrain. For example, the arms and equipment of the Thracian troops allowed the individual soldier greater mobility and freer action in hand-to-hand combat than a phalangite could adopt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid_army#Allied.2C_Vassal_and_Mercenary_Infantry

About Mysia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysia

from House of Seleucos

https://archive.org/details/houseofseleucusv017717mbp

were armed in the Macedonian manner, they were not apparently Macedonian in blood, but picked men drawn from Al provinces A the Empire-an indication that here again the policy of Alexander to bring young Orientals under the Macedonian drill-sergeant and close to his own person was not abandoned. A still lighter infantry were those who carried, not the Macedonian shield, but the un-metalled pelte (originally a Thracian weapon), which had come into common use in Greece the fourth century. It was as peltasts that the Greek mercenaries in the armies of the Eastern kings served, and it was A Apply this arm that the recruiting officers A Ptolemy and Seleucid were continually going up and down Greece. Aetolians, we gather, were the branch of the Greek race Abs figured most largely in this line, All by the Peace of Apamea Andochus was cut off from his source A supply and forbidden to recruit any more in the Roman sphere. Certain A the races of Asia Minor Also furnished peltasts - the semi-hellenized Lycians, the Pamphylians and Pisidians.

Cretans

Next in order of lightness to the peltasts came the Cretans, who formed a very important element-especially for mountain warfare. Crete seethed in chronic broils of one little state against another; the Cretans were born to arms, to ambushes in steep places and stealthy clambering. When they were not fighting at home they went to fight abroad in the service of foreign kings.

They were found in all the armies of the time, ranged indifferently on both sides in the great battles. With the Cretans are classed at Magnesia the Carians and Cilicians. The Cilicians are described, both at Raphia and in the Daphne procession, as "armed in the manner of men girt for running.- that is, everything was sacrificed to rapidity of movement on broken ground. The condition of things in Cilicia was very much the same as in Crete; both peoples made the strength of the great pirate power in the last century before Christ. Some of the tribes of the Balkan peninsula, Thracians and Illyrians, Also took service in the same capacity as the Cretans. In the Daphne procession there are 3000 Thracians. The missile-shooters, those whose weapons were of long range-archers, slingers, javeliners

Edited October 30, 2015 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

so was some kind of est archers? here are another clue.

The choice of Apollo Toxotes served to legitimize the Seleucids as the rightful successors of the Achaemenid kings. Achaemenid inscriptions invariably praise the prowess of the Great King as a bowman. Achaemenid coins depict him shooting or holding a bow, imagery that inspired the popular Greek name for these coins, toxotai. The bow was, in fact, a symbol of divine kingship for the Iranians, and its association with sovereignty can be traced back in ancient Mesopotamia to Akkadian and Assyrian origins. The survival of this tradition beyond the Seleucid period is attested by the reverse type of Arsacid drachms(Parthians), which also show a seated archer. As the son of an Iranian princess, Antiochus I was perhaps especially sympathetic to eastern cultural traditions. His fourteen-year reign in the east as his father’s coregent will have deepened his exposure and brought home the practicalities of placating the subject populations. Seleucus’ early use of solar imagery in the east suggests that he too was attuned to the multiethnic character of his territories. Indeed, this may explain why he was the only one of Alexander’s successors to remain married to his Iranian wife and to make her the matriarch of a Hellenistic dynasty. Still, it was Antiochus, not Seleucus, who found a way to inscribe the Seleucids in the eastern tradition of divine kingship by claiming descent from Apollo and portraying him as the divine archer. At the same time, as the patron of Greek colonization Apollo spoke to the Macedonian and Greek immigrants who peopled the new foundations of the Seleucid kingdom.

http://www.seleukidtraces.info/miscellanea/exc_iossif_apollo_toxotes

Edited October 30, 2015 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

Why Total War Rome II use Syrian Archer?

Historically, Syria has been famous for its archers for thousands of years. These men took part in almost every major Near Eastern war since the early Assyrian kingdom used them as auxiliary troops. They have been a decisive arm on the battlefield time and time again, so long as they are supported by good infantry. A sensible commander will take their strengths and weaknesses into account before using them.

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php?mp=unit&unit=eastern%20missile%20syrian%20archers&text=&ownership=dacia&class=missile&category=infantry

Syriakoi Toxotai : The famous Syrian archers were renown for their skills and great composite bow. They were proud of their military tradition which dates back form the Assyrians. More than long-range archers, they were also skilled infantrymen, able to use spears and swords as well with bravery and efficience. The Romans lately recruited many other nationalities under the name "syrian

http://www.ancient-battles.com/catw/seleucia.htm

why I'm so skeptical?

This Unit is very Anachronistic

but the source of the above info, about Syrians have these units as part of their "historic" army

Edited October 30, 2015 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

What is Assyria?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria

It thereafter became part of the Seleucid Empire (312 BC) and was renamed Syria, a Hurrian, Luwian and Greek corruption of Assyria, a term which for many centuries until the Seleucid era had only and specifically meant and referred to Assyria and the Assyrians, and not to The Levant and its largely Aramean, Phoenician and Neo-Hittite inhabitants.[57] It is from this period that the later Syria Vs Assyria naming controversy arises, the Seleucids applied the name not only to Assyria itself, but also to the Levantine lands to the west (historically known as Aram modern Syria/Eber Nari), which had been part of the Assyrian empire but never a part of Assyria.

When they lost control of Assyria, the name Syria survived but was erroneously applied only to the land of Aramea (also known as Eber Nari) to the west that had once been part of the Assyrian empire, but apart from the north eastern corner, had never been a part of Assyria itself, nor inhabited by Assyrians. This was to lead to both the Assyrians from Northern Mesopotamia and the Arameans and Phoenicians from the Levant being collectively dubbed Syrians (and later also Syriacs) in Greco-Roman culture, regardless of ethnicity, history or geography.

During Seleucid rule, Assyrians ceased to hold the senior military and civil positions they had enjoyed under the Achaemenids, being largely replaced by Greeks. The Greek language also replaced Mesopotamian East Aramaic as the lingua franca of the empire, although this did not affect the Assyrian population themselves, who were not Hellenised during the Seleucid era.

During the Seleucid period in southern Mesopotamia, Babylon was gradually abandoned in favour of a new city named Dura Seleucus, effectively bringing an end to Babylonia.

Composite bows were soon adopted and adapted by civilizations who came into contact with nomads, such as the Chinese, Assyrian, and Egyptian. Several composite bows were found in the tomb of Tutankhamun, who died in 1324 BCE.^[7] Composite bows (and chariots) are known in China from at least the Shang Dynasty (1700–1100 BCE).^[8] By the 4th century BCE, chariotry had ceased to have military importance, replaced by cavalry everywhere (except in Britannia where charioteers are not recorded as using bows).

the introduction of a standing army(Neo Assyrian Empire). This included a larger number of foreign soldiers but mixed in with other Assyrian soldiers.^[17][21] These men could be supplied by vassal states as tribute or when demanded by the Assyrian King. They were given Assyrian equipment and uniform which made them indistinguishable from one another, possibly to increase their integration.^[21] While the infantry in the standing army contained a large number of foreigners (including Aramaeans and even Greeks), the Assyrian cavalry and charioteers continued to be dominated by Assyrians.^[17] There were exceptions however, and as casualties mounted additional troops would not be unwelcome; Sargon II reports that he managed to incorporate 60 Israelite Chariot teams into his army

more similar, the conic helmet like Romans Syrian Archer, but not connection yet.

https://books.google.hn/books?id=Y_sAi7EkTLkC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=assyrian+archery+seleucid&source=bl&ots=xshdPUeirn&sig=lFrnHpKM98YWy-TwQOe4KO5mNKM&hl=es-419&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=archer&f=false

Edited October 30, 2015 by Lion.Kanzen