Unique Civilizations - discussion and suggestions

[iNcog]

Well, with the release of A17 with all the juicy improvements we got (I still can't get over how much has been done by the amazing developers we have for 0 AD), people are playing on Alpha 17 but it also means that Alpha 18 is now under development.

The time is ripe to discuss civilizations in a bit more detail, I believe.

There are a couple of things that we have to make civilizations different from one another.

- Civilization bonuses

- Different tech trees

- Different / unique buildings

- Different / unique units

- Different / unique upgrades

So I've opened this thread to discuss these aspects with each other. In particular, some civilizations have interesting civilization bonuses that allow for stylistic play (e.g. Roman soldiers have 10% armor when fighting in Roman territory, which allows for strong defensive play). Other civilizations have strange bonuses (Iberians starting with walls).

You also have unique units; should Triarii infantry be different from other spear men? Should we increase their stats and cost a bit, to reflect their rigorous yet expensive training and equipment? Could we make Persian units cost much less and have weaker stats?

This is also a thread were history can provide us with interesting food for thought. Upgrades and passive civilization bonuses should be different so as to allow for a larger variety of strategies. If I feel like playing a defensive, economy-oriented strategy, I can choose Romans since their units are stronger when fighting in friendly territory for example. I think that making civilizations more unique is a pretty big thing. As of right now, I'm pretty sure that I could use more or less the same build for almost every civilization in every game.

There also civilization bonuses which I feel aren't interesting or just plain bad. I don't think that free houses for Ptolemies is a good bonus, nor do I think that Iberians should start with walls either.

You could make Ptolemaic (spelling?) houses cost a bit less and build faster for example. This would reduce the time that units spend building houses instead of gathering resources. It would also make Ptolemies an excellent civilization to house boom with, since they can get a lot of houses quickly.

As for Iberians starting with walls, well, I don't have much to say. It makes aggressive play very difficult early on and later in the game that bonus is useless. I don't like it too much. Not sure what a good, interesting, historical replacement might be.

So, that's why we discuss these things. : P

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Has this already not been thought about?

[niektb]

Has this already not been thought about?

Yes, Prodigal Son has spent quite some time to get a list in this thread: http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19182 In the TS, scroll a bit down to faction-specifics. But I agree that thread also adresses other stuff.

[iNcog]

Has this already not been thought about?

It's a discussion / suggestion thread about one particular topic: how do civilizations become unique from one another? Indeed, this topic has been brought up in other threads but as you see in Prodigal son's thread, that is a very vast thread which encompasses a lot of aspects of 0 AD. I wanted to have a discussion thread only about how we make civilizations unique from one another; this is already quite a large topic in itself.

I think some civilization bonuses are out of place and need a rework. I named the Iberian and Ptolemaic civilizations but I'm sure there are others as well that could do well with some brainstorming.

Also, would people be against vastly different tech trees? One of the things about 0 AD is that every civilization has the almost exact same tech tree, everything is unlocked through the different phases. There's no such thing as needed to get a blacksmith shop to get a castle or anything. No prerequisites are needed, you just need to age. Would it be bad to modify the tech tree so that it's different? This is a very big change I'm proposing but it's one I think is worth considering to make civilizations quite different from one another. hard to say.

as of right now, it feels like the game plays out the same regardless of which civilization you're playing. that's just a bit off, imo

[Prodigal Son]

It's a discussion / suggestion thread about one particular topic: how do civilizations become unique from one another? Indeed, this topic has been brought up in other threads but as you see in Prodigal son's thread, that is a very vast thread which encompasses a lot of aspects of 0 AD. I wanted to have a discussion thread only about how we make civilizations unique from one another; this is already quite a large topic in itself.

I think some civilization bonuses are out of place and need a rework. I named the Iberian and Ptolemaic civilizations but I'm sure there are others as well that could do well with some brainstorming.

Also, would people be against vastly different tech trees? One of the things about 0 AD is that every civilization has the almost exact same tech tree, everything is unlocked through the different phases. There's no such thing as needed to get a blacksmith shop to get a castle or anything. No prerequisites are needed, you just need to age. Would it be bad to modify the tech tree so that it's different? This is a very big change I'm proposing but it's one I think is worth considering to make civilizations quite different from one another. hard to say.

as of right now, it feels like the game plays out the same regardless of which civilization you're playing. that's just a bit off, imo

Agreed that it's worth a separate thread.

I'd be 100% for more varied factions and I'd be full of ideas on it, but since it's a game with 12 of them and not 3-4 as in games with huge differences, I believe that would result in a tough to learn and hard to balance game. Something more than AOK but far less than Warcraft III/Starcraft/AOM should work.

Specific building requirements to advance phases isn't something really needed, even though it could work, as in other games. It's a little limiting in strategies and build orders though.

Here's my thoughts about factions from the other thread:

FACTION SPECIFICS

Trying to make each faction unique through historical attributes. Note that the unit lists I'm mentioning are chosen mostly from a historical perspective, balance and uniqueness for each faction on that field would need lengthy discussions.

ATHENIANS

The Athenians should have bonuses on navy, expansion, infantry mobility, economy and research, with an expand and defend playstyle. Faster built or cheaper Civ Centers will allow quick expansion (simulating colonization or vassalization of other's colonies) with mobile infantry forces and navies to protect them or raid enemy holdings. Later on, Philosopher units can help the colonies flurish enhancing construction, economy and research, to make up for a slightly weak late game military.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Athenian Hoplite
• (Athenian Skirmisher)
• (Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Athenian Hoplite
• Athenian Skirmisher
• Athenian Slinger
• Athenian Archer
• Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Athenian Cavalry Spearman
• (Iphicratian Hoplite - after reform)

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1)

• Thracian Skirmisher
• (Iphicratian Hoplite - after reform)
• (Thracian Phomphaiophoros)
• (Thracian Cavalry Skirmisher)
• (Scythian Archer)
• (Cretan Archer)
• (Rhodian Slinger)

GYMNASION (Now this structure makes some sense for proposed champions, if they are rejected please rename it to garrison and add a new icon)

• Logades Hoplites - Elite hoplite force instead of the generic "city guard", same function. I've read they also trained to use bows, but not sure about the source. Going this way could have Logades Hoplites and Archers (picked force of both as champions) without marines full time on land.
• Marine Archers - Makes more sense than the scythians or some unhistorical marine swordsman. Marines could give an extra bonus when garrisoned in ships.

(NEW) ACADEMY STRUCTURE (For Greeks, Succesors, Romans and Maybe Carthaginians - library or some recently unbuildable greek structures as placeholders)

• Holds some (new) techs that don't fit elsewhere
• Philosopher Champion Healer: New unit that functions as a priest but also has an aura or empowerment skill increasing construction/train time/tech time.

REFORMS

• Iphicratian Reform: Increased movement speed for melee and ranged infantry, possibly at a slight armor trade-off if it proves too strong. Could also replace Hoplites with Iphicratian Hoplites looking similar to the current city guard.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Colonization/Athenian Empire: Cheaper/faster built CC that provide a small tickle of metal.
• Chorigoi (Sponsors): Dock tech reducing Trireme (metal?) cost.
• Iphicratids: Increases all infantry speed (if reforms aren't implemented) tech and
• Philosophy (or something related): reduced tech research time. Tech or bonus.
• Laurion Mines: Increased metal mining speed with each researched phase. Bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Delian League - faster shipbuilding.

BRITONS

The Britons should be an offensive civ with relatively cheap and weak (in defense) early units and weaker, faster built (wooden) structures. This makes them a viable booming faction as well. More research needed.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Celtic Spearman
• (Celtic Skirmisher)
• (CelticCavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Celtic Spearman
• Celtic Skirmisher
• Celtic Cavalry Skirmisher
• Celtic Slinger
• Celtic Cavalry Spearman
• (Celtic Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Longswordsman
• Champion Chariot

REFORMS

• Needs research

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Crossbreeding (or other tech): increased wardog attack/hp
• Woad/Body Paint: Temple tech adding a fear aura to melee infantry (slightly decreasing the attack speed or damage of melee enemies in range).
• As with Persians and Mauryans, but to a lesser extend, earlier units are cheaper/weaker, which gives an economic bonus
• Druids bonus/tech: Increased research rate
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Needs research

CARTHAGINIANS

The Carthaginians should have bonuses on naval trade, navy, exploration, expansion, defenses and mercenaries. Locating (with bonused scouting) and securing (with fast built or tough structures) metal deposits, to help them make the most out of their mercenary armies, as well as maintaining naval and trade superiority could be their core direction.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Libyan Spearman
• (Libyan Skirmisher)
• (Punic/Libyan Cavalry Spearman)

BARRACKS (Citizen/Subject People Recruits)

• Libyan Spearman
• Libyan Skirmisher
• (Mauritanian/Punic/Libyan Archer)
• Punic/Libyan Cavalry Spearman

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (Bonused to 2+ for Carthage)

• Numidian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Balearic Slinger
• Iberian Swordsman
• Iberian Skirmisher
• Gallic Swordsman
• Gallic Cavalry Spearman
• Iberian Cavalry Spearman
• Italian Cavalry Spearman
• Italian Swordsman
• (Numidian Skirmisher)
• (Numidian Archer)
• (Ligurian Spearman)
• (Gallic Spearman)
• (Iberian Spearman)
• (Greek Hoplite)
• (Cretan Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• War Elephant

TEMPLE

• Sacred band infantry and Cavalry Champions (plus healers ofc)

REFORMS

• Barcid Armies: Increased armor for melee infantry units (rearmed with looted roman kits) and reduced mercenary costs (better handling of alliances and subjects through diplomacy and use of hostages)

POSSIBLE TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Colonization bonus: Either shared with Athens (cheaper/faster built CC) or faster built houses/CC/Temples.Works better as a bonus.
• Exploration: Increased unit/ship line of sight (maybe for civilian and non-mercenary units only, or just traders and ships). Works better as a bonus.
• Mass Production: Increased siege weapon train speed. Works better as a tech.
• Triple Walls/Fortified Barracks: Increased Wall, barracks, fortress, tower hp. Bonus or tech(s).
• Buff naval shipyard with repair aura, ability to garrison ships and an attack or some of them. Add naval architects to both docks, they were major shipbuilders from early on and not doing so makes their mid game navy weak.
• (Ability to corral horses/elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Increased naval trade income

GAULS

The Gauls should be an offensive civ with relatively cheap and weak (in defense) early units and weaker, faster built (wooden) structures. This makes them a viable booming faction as well. Later on they get access to tougher units and upgrades.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Celtic Spearman
• (Celtic Skirmisher)
• (CelticCavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Celtic Spearman
• Celtic Swordsman
• Celtic Skirmisher
• Celtic Cavalry Skirmisher
• Celtic Slinger
• Celtic Cavalry Spearman
• (Celtic Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Swordsman
• Champion Cavalry Spearman

REFORMS

• "Increased use of Chainmail": Increases armor (especially hack) for melee infantry and cavalry units.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Trimarcisia: Barracks tech increasing cavalry hit point regeneration (or later on stamina regeneration). A special tactic they used involving extra mounts and auxiliary servants for horsemen.
• As with Persians and Mauryans, but to a lesser extend, earlier units are cheaper/weaker, which gives an economic bonus
• Loot bonus: increased resources from destroying buildings, or income from attacking them.
• Mass Migration: increases all foot unit speed
• Druids bonus/tech: Increased research rate
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Foreign Service, decreasing mercenary and champion unit train times. Many Gauls served in foreign armies as mercenaries, settler troops or parts of elite/royal guard units.

IBERIANS

The Iberians are the ultimate turtle civ with several defensive bonuses and also specialize at guerilla warfare. Their units are quite varied but their navy is one of the weakest.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Iberian Swordsman
• (Iberian Skirmisher)
• (Iberian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Iberian Swordsman
• Iberian Skirmisher
• Iberian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Iberian Spearman
• Iberian Cavalry Spearman
• Balearic Slinger

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Swordsman
• Champion Cavalry Skirmisher

REFORMS

• Needs research

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• I don't like the default wall bonus. It's imbalanced, looks strange and prevents desired city-building unless you start deleting the walls. An extra Civ Center default arrow and increase in Civ Center hp would work as maintaining their anti-rush attribute, and coupled with their stronger towers and forts make a good defensive civ.
• I thought of a way of implementing their ambush attribute. Iberian units could be detectable at a reduced percentage of enemy unit line of sight instead of the full of it. This could also work for selected units of other civs as well with good ambush abilities.
• When building capturing/loyalty is implemented (although I don't really like the concept having experimented with something similar in WC3) Iberian structures could be harder to capture to simulate their fierce resistance to Roman expansionism.
• (Ability to corral horses for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Flaming javelins tech
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Javelin armed non-champion units cheaper.

MACEDONIANS

The Macedonians field powerful cavalry, infantry and siege weapons and reliable missile units. A mostly offensive faction at early-mid game, that gets more staying power later on with reforms increasing the survivability of several units.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Macedonian Pikeman
• (Agrianian Skirmisher)
• (Macedonian Cavalry Spearman)

BARRACKS (Native and Closely related Subjects/Allies)

• Macedonian Pikeman
• Agrianian Skirmisher
• Thessalian Cavalry Spearman
• Odryssian Cavalry Skirmisher
• (Sarissophoros Cavalry Spearman)

MERCENARY CAMP(Limited to 1)

• Rhodian Slinger
• Cretan Archer
• Thracian Rhompaiophoros Swordsman
• Thracian Skirmisher
• Galatians Horse/Sword (After Reform)
• Greek Thyreophoroi (After Reform)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
• Hypaspist/Silvershield
• Hetairos Aspidophoros (After Reform) - Resilient cavalry skirmisher.
• Royal Peltast (After Reform) - Could be anything from pikeman/skirmisher/swordsman.
• Kestros Slinger (After Reform) - High attack slinger, or turned into a slinger tech.
• War Elephant (Possible with Import elephants tech or with full metal cost at the mercenary camp)

REFORMS

• Early Antigonid Reform: Hetairos Aspidophoros replaces Hetairos. Royal Peltast replaces Hypaspist. Adds extra mercenary units.
• Late Antigonid Reform: Increases Pikeman hack armor and train speed. Adds Kestros Slinger Champion unit or tech.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Starting having Alexander's army rooster, then envolving into early and late era Antigonid Macedon with reforms.
• Give them Penteres (Heavy Warship). Could be with the early reform if not by default.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Standardized Currency, Tribute and trade between allies of the metal resource is bonused ~ 15%(their old one, seems very interesting).
• Fetters of Hellas: late game tech increasing fortress hit points. Antigonid Macedonians controlled the most valuable fortified locations in Greece for a long while.
• (Ability to corral horses for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

MAURYANS

The Mauryans could be an aggressive (rush) civ with weak, cheap and fast trained units, relatively weak and fast built (wooden) structures. This can also allow them to play with a booming playstyle, since cheap citizen-soldiers should give an early economic advantage. Their armies are rather weak with the exceptions of archery units and war elephants.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Worker Elephant
• Indian Spearman
• Indian Archer
• (Indian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS

• Indian Spearman
• Indian Swordsman
• Indian Cavalry Spearman
• Indian Archer
• Indian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Indian Chariot

ELEPHANT STABLES

• Worker Elephant
• Elephant Archer Champion
• Armored Elephant Champion

FORTRESS

• Infantry Swordsman Champion (btw do we need almost identical male and female versions of the same unit? If female warriors were indeed important, perhaps make the archer version trainable instead).

REFORMS

• No clue yet.. did a little read and the only reform I found is related to pacifism.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• If realism is considered and early Mauryan units are weaker, cheaper and faster to train, this gives them by default a slight economic edge, so they need less bonuses compared to other factions.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Evangelism, reducing temple tech cost/time sounds good as it is.
• (Ability to corral elephants for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

PERSIANS

The Persians excel at massing weak, cheap infantry units supported by equally cheap but formidable archers. But what really stands out is their cavalry arm, one of the strongest among all civs. Their structures are strong as well, although a little slower to build.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Persian Spearman
• Persian Archer
• (Median Cavalry Skirmisher)

*options are endless, so I'll just go with "Persian" for many units

(LEVY) BARRACKS

• Persian Spearman
• Persian Archer
• Persian Skirmisher
• Cardacas Hoplite (After Reform)

STABLES

• Median Cavalry Skirmisher
• Scythed Chariot - as one-rank non-champion
• Scythian Horse Archer (could also be champion, subject to balance)
• Cappadocian Spear Cavalry
• Hycarnian Axe Cavalry

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1 - After Reforms)

• Greek Mercenary Hoplite
• Greek Mercenary

PALACE (Champions)

• Immortal

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Bactrian Cavalry
• Indian War Elephant - (After reform if no "import elephants" tech is used)

REFORMS

• Late Achaemenid Reform: Unlocks Cardakas Hoplite, Mercenary Camp and possibly War Elephants

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Add Persian architecture as a default bonus, should work better. Weak, faster trained troops, out of strong, slower built structures. As a tech it's a bit discouraging.
• If realism is considered and early Persian units are weaker, cheaper and faster to train, this gives them by default a slight economic edge, so they need less bonuses compared to other factions.
• (Ability to corral horses/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Cavalry have a transported size of 1 instead of 2.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: The Royal Road. Increased trader speed.

PTOLEMIES

The Ptolemies should have a well balanced military, with most troop types and better than average mercenaries, but that shouldn't be the core of their strength, somewhat lacking in champion units and military techs. Farming, research, naval and defense bonuses should make them a booming-defensive faction with a variety of secondary options.

CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Alexandria - Only buildable by Heroes?)

• Woman
• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• (Thracian Settler Skirmisher)
• (Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman)

(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)

• Judean Slinger
• Nabataean Camel Archer
• Machimos Pikeman Champion (After Reform)

MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)

• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Thracian Settler Skirmisher
• Galatian Settler Swordsman
• Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Aetolian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Cretan Archer
• (Galatian Sword/Horse)
• (Thracian Skirm/HorseSkirm/Phomphaophoros)
• (Carian Axeman - Sword class)
• (Libyan Skirmisher)
• Hellenic Thyreophoros Spearman or Skirmisher

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Royal Guard (Agema) Cavalry
• War Elephant
• (Royal Foot Guard - hypaspist-like unit, many possible functions)
• (Machimoi Epilektoi - After Reforms)

REFORMS

• Machimoi Reform (Early): Unlocks the slightly weak, but cheap and fast to train Machimos Pikeman Champion.
• Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion replaces Macedonian Settler Pikeman and Machimos Thyreophoros (non-Champion) replaces Machimos Pikeman.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Farming bonus or tech (The Nile)
• Naval or Naval/Siege/structure tech (Great Engineering and Fleets)
• Recruiting Agents/Officers: Faster trained Mercenaries tech
• Garrison damage bonus or tech. They focused a lot on defensive garrisons.
• (Ability to corral elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Breadbasket of the Mediterranean a slow trickle of food income.

ROMANS

The Romans might have somewhat weak cavalry, but make up for it with easy to mass tough infantry, strong siege weapons/structures and increasingly good technology as the game advances.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Roman Swordsman - (alternative, a hoplite-like rank1 of triarii to simulate early roman army fighting that way)
• (Roman Skirmisher)
• (Roman Cavalry Spearman)

(LEGION) BARRACKS

• Roman Swordsman
• Roman Spearman - (could start at rank2 to simulate he's a veteran)
• Roman Skirmisher
• Roman Cavalry Spearman

AUXILIARY/MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Allied Cavalry Skirmisher
• Extraordinaire Champion
• (Allied legions/Italic units)

The Following are possible post-reform units

• Numidian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Numidian War Elephant
• Gallic/Germanic Horseman
• Balearic Slinger
• Rhodian Slinger
• Cretan Archer
• Syrian Archer

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Consular Bodyguard Champion

REFORMS

• Marian Reforms: Hastati, Triarii, Extraordinarii replaced by (Marian) Legionaries. Some mercenaries/auxiliaries unlocked as well

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Gladius: Tech increasing infantry swordsman attack speed (and maybe slightly reducing damage, but overall increasing dps)
• Logistics: Barracks or Army camp tech increasing infantry training (and batch training) speed. Their major strength, ability to field and replace big numbers of reliable heavy infantry needs to be represented in game.
• The overall focus on infantry, could kick the extraordinarri champions out of the rooster, or downgrade them, leaving romans with no champions (besides the bodyguard cav) before the reforms. This would be balanced by the massability of reliable citizen infantry.
• Imported Construction Technology: Tech slightly increasing ship/siege/structure hit points and damage. Simulating their common practice of copying whatever worked well from their enemies. Makes me think of the need for an academy type structure for some factions to hold such upgrades
• Shared (Team) Bonus: I'm thinking of a reverse thing here, debuffing all enemies instead of buffing allies. Roman allies were just ment to be absorbed by Rome later on anyway. So something like divide and conquer, what would be a nice in game bonus for it? Not that Socii (or citizenship) in the DD (but yet to be added I guess) are bad bonuses)

SELEUCIDS

The Seleucids probably have access to the largest troop variety of all civs, including several elite units and powerful reforms. Their other aspects could stay at average more or less for balance, even though historically they could have many other bonuses and their weaknesses don't translate well in RTS gameplay.

CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Antioch - Only buildable by Heroes?)

• Woman
• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• (Neo-Cretan Archer)
• (Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman)

(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)

• Syrian Archer
• Median Cavalry Skirmisher
• Arabian Skirmisher
• Scythed Chariot - as one-rank non-champion
• Dahae Horse Archer
• (Persian Archer, Cyrtian Slinger and goes on and on and on)

MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)

• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Thracian Settler Skirmisher
• Neo-Cretan Archer
• Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman
• Silver Shield Pikeman Champion
• Thorakites Sword Champion (After Reform)
• Cataphract Champion (After Reform)
• (Thracian Settler Rhomphaophoros)

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Galatian Swordsman/Horseman
• Cretan Archer
• Tarantine Cavalry Skirmisher
• Judean Thyreophoros Spearman or Slinger
• (Greek Skirmisher)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
• Armored War Elephant

REFORMS

• Cavalry Reform (Early): Cataphracts Replace Thessalian Horsemen
• Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion Available

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• "Plenty of Greek Settlers" Bonus: Increases Military Settlement training and bach training time (or construction speed).
• Shared (Team) Bonus: "Fertile Cresent"/"Silk Road"/"Mesopotamia"/"w/e" small boost to farming and land trade. (The old bonus of Syrian Tetrapolis seems too artificial to me).
• (Ability to corral horses/elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

SPARTANS

The Spartans can be a very unique faction with early available, very limited, super-elite infantry supported by average to poor other units. Late game reforms can provide a reliable, massable unit in Cleomenian Pikemen and improve other troop classes through newly unlocked mercenaries, so that they can stand against other faction's now powerful armies. Helots can be used as a unique worker unit with the best default farming rate (even if slaves are added in general).

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• (Helot - Slave worker with farming bonuses and degenerating hitpoints - going gaia and aggressive at low health)
• (Spartan Hoplite Champion limited to one per farm or house - can't gather/build)
• (Spartan Hoplite - alternative to the above, a bit tougher, more expensive and longer to train than other early units - possibly can't gather/build)
• (Helot Skirmisher)
• (Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (Subjects such as perioikoi, helots and skiritae - those were a actually tribe, not spartan commandos, probably being confused with crypteia)

• Helot Skirmisher
• Perioikos Hoplite
• Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher
• Skiritis Ekdromos (fast light spearman)

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1)

• Cretan Archers
• Tarantine Cavarly Skirmisher
• (Elean Cavalry Spearman)
• (Arcadian Hoplite)
• (Hellenic Thyreophoros Spearman or Skirmisher)
• (Rodian or Arcadian Slingers)

SYSSITION (Champion Units)

• Spartan Hoplite Champion
• Cleomenian Pikeman - after reform
• (Spartan Royal Guard or Hippeis Champion - if early champion idea is rejected and normal spartan hoplites are used)
• (Crypteia - swordsman for variety? - Special operations and police force, often used to terrorize-murder helots. Could have a helot suppression aura preventing helot revolts if helot workers are used)

REFORMS

• Cleomenian Reform: Unlocks pikemen citizen-soldiers, provides a farming bonus and possibly unlocks some of the mercenaries.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Agoge and Female bonus more or less as they are.
• Tyrtean Paeans: Spartan hoplites move faster. Tech.
• Replace Agis - who seems less interesting with no aura - with Cleomenes III, having an aura buffing pikemen.
• Shared (Team bonus): Peloponessian League - Citizen Infantry Spearmen train faster.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I do like a lot of ideas regarding Prodigal Son's proposal, but I would like to suggest my own takes on them. I do them in anti-alphabetical order starting with Sparta.

Sparta:

While I like the ideas, the Spartan hoplite should still be limited to the Syssiton, a building available from the beginning. Second, the helot unit should be limited to simply being a regular worker. Having it lose hitpoints seems a bit unnecessary. One possible thing for them could be to have a liberation option, which would convert them into Perioikoi for a cost, similar to the Age of Mythology mechanic of converting gatherers into Ulfsarks. Perioikoi should be average units given their limited liberties. I would limit the Mercenary Camp's uses, yet regarding the reforms I think that seems like a good idea. Perhaps an alternative players could make to the pikeman reform could be technology representing a focus on Spartan traditions, making the powerful Spartan hoplites even more so. Helot skirmishers do not have any historical justification to my knowledge, so maybe in the mid-game peltasts could be a viable mercenary option for the mid game.

[Prodigal Son]

I do like a lot of ideas regarding Prodigal Son's proposal, but I would like to suggest my own takes on them. I do them in anti-alphabetical order starting with Sparta.

Sparta:

While I like the ideas, the Spartan hoplite should still be limited to the Syssiton, a building available from the beginning. Second, the helot unit should be limited to simply being a regular worker. Having it lose hitpoints seems a bit unnecessary. One possible thing for them could be to have a liberation option, which would convert them into Perioikoi for a cost, similar to the Age of Mythology mechanic of converting gatherers into Ulfsarks. Perioikoi should be average units given their limited liberties. I would limit the Mercenary Camp's uses, yet regarding the reforms I think that seems like a good idea. Perhaps an alternative players could make to the pikeman reform could be technology representing a focus on Spartan traditions, making the powerful Spartan hoplites even more so. Helot skirmishers do not have any historical justification to my knowledge, so maybe in the mid-game peltasts could be a viable mercenary option for the mid game.

- The Spartan Hoplite could be trained in many different ways, your suggestion could work for better or worse compared to mine, depending on how early game balance works in the end.

- I've suggested slaves with degenerating hitpoints as a further differentiation from normal workers, simulating the increased abuse on them, often to the point of death. They could also combo with healers this way to increase their effectiveness/prevent revolts (if those are implemented). Your suggestion wouldn't be bad or unrealistic as a Spartan specific though. However helots did fight as skirmishers/peltasts and in general followed the Spartans into war in numbers often bigger than those of the Spartans.

- I'm strongly in favor of a merc camp for all factions, a buffed one for ptolemies and a super buffed one for carthage, and rebalancing mercenaries in general. Mercenaries weren't trained the same way as local units. Barracks or (especially phase one) Civ Center training them seems wrong. An extra merc camp for each faction also opens up alternative-metal heavy strategies, with many possible related techs as well.

- Perioikoi as the average units for Sparta sounds about right, although I still pref the early hoplites being Spartans (either slightly buffed citizens with a champion version as well, or champions from the start with a limiting factor).

- If reforms for all factions get in, which I'd really love, I'd prefer to implement real ones not fantasy ones. Traditionalist "reform" in place of the Cleomenian one wasn't possible because: "true Spartan" manpower was in the low hundreds and hoplites were severely outclassed by other units for decades (and outclassed for almost 150 years) by then. Gameplay-wise it could work/add variety though.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

In regards to the comments, I am glad to learn you agree on several points, but I would argue a couple points. Helot workers losing hitpoints seems a bit queer. Although they certainly were not treated well, they had certain degrees of autonomy that made them far better off than many slaves. Having slaves depicted in this way is not a bad idea I will admit though. Regarding the idea of the traditionalist reform, I would not venture to call it a reform. Rather, it is more of a reflection of emphasizing on the traditional martial characteristics of Spartans. Following it would represent dependence on allies and perioikoi as the main Spartan soldiers while Spartan hoplites would provide vital auras to them. The idea is not so much a fantasy, but instead rejecting innovation, a thing the Spartans clung to for a good while.

[Prodigal Son]

In regards to the comments, I am glad to learn you agree on several points, but I would argue a couple points. Helot workers losing hitpoints seems a bit queer. Although they certainly were not treated well, they had certain degrees of autonomy that made them far better off than many slaves. Having slaves depicted in this way is not a bad idea I will admit though. Regarding the idea of the traditionalist reform, I would not venture to call it a reform. Rather, it is more of a reflection of emphasizing on the traditional martial characteristics of Spartans. Following it would represent dependence on allies and perioikoi as the main Spartan soldiers while Spartan hoplites would provide vital auras to them. The idea is not so much a fantasy, but instead rejecting innovation, a thing the Spartans clung to for a good while.

- If it turns out to work the way I suggested for slaves in general (and that if they are added to the core game) I can't see why Helots shouldn't lose hitpoints if other slaves do. Treatment of Helots was varied, depending on the period, different Spartan leaders, need for extra manpower in war etc. I wouldn't say they had it better on average compared to other slaves. The Spartans even had their youths and crypteia murdering and torturing Helots without a reason but to harden the former and oppress/demoralize the second. Differences I'd suggest are helots being bonused at farming, being trained at civ centers for food instead of bought at the market for metal and perhaps some tech(s) having to do with liberation/military enlisting.

- Then, if it's not something related to/alternative to late reforms, it could work historically. However there's already the agoge tech buffing spartan hoplites. On the aura thing, I've suggested something similar.. an aura buffing allies or one debuffing enemies, related to their fame as the best soldiers. Could be a default or tech, or something coming with rank up for citizen hoplites.

[LordIgorIIIofKiev]

Here are my ideas on the topic in my opinion, what would make it more unique in my honest opinion is actually what happens in the first age, allowing more tactics depending on diff civs and different economical and therefore allowing for different tactics and booms and in general allowing more creativity and option to the player:

DIFFERENCES THAT CAN BE ADDED BETWEEN CIVS AND STILL KEEP BALANCE:
Primarily focused on phase 1
Athenians:

• The athenians in my honest opinion are very interesting but what i would do is make houses cost would cost :120 wood 40 stone

Macedonians:

• Now the Macedonians had skirmishers which were lighter then usual so they would be faster but obviously with a penalty in the amount of resources they could carry with them.
• SO maybe instead of 10 at the beginning they could have a max of 8 or 7.
• Price 65 food and 45 wood

Spartans:

• Spartan spearmen should be stronger then the usual spearmen in phase 1, he should deal more damage
• The skirmisher in my opinion should have more precision but take more time between shots(in proportions). another
• Elite soldiers and champions would deal double damage or be faster when they are at really low health sort of like a last stand,
• Price of skirmisher: 60 food and 50 wood
• Price of spear: 60 food and 50 wood
• Females have better gathering rate on wood,metal and stone then the other females.

Romans:

• For the Romans i suggest: first of all they had heavy javelins so i would make them deal more damage be slower.and able to carry more resources on them.
• Price of skirmisher: 10 metal 40 food and 50 wood

Mauryans:

• Troops a bit weaker both in damage and in health
• Train a bit faster
• Price: 40 wood and 60 food.

Iberians:

• First of all the starting wall they have is a palisade.
• Less health and less damage but faster and cheaper houses 60 wood
• Gathering rates increase the higher level they are

Ptolomies:

• Make Archers + cost 10 food or train slower

This is all for the while
Another thing that could be added in order to increase balance is if some civs already started with some techs upgraded for example a good farmer civ could have the first farmer tech already upgraded.

[Prodigal Son]

Athenians:

• The athenians in my honest opinion are very interesting but what i would do is make houses cost would cost :120 wood 40 stone

This just makes the early game more confusing for new players for no real gameplay value.

Macedonians:

• Now the Macedonians had skirmishers which were lighter then usual so they would be faster but obviously with a penalty in the amount of resources they could carry with them.
• SO maybe instead of 10 at the beginning they could have a max of 8 or 7.
• Price 65 food and 45 wood

Again confusing and requiring extra balance for no real benefit. If some bonus is intended for Macedonian skirmishers, attack or attack speed would do (simulating their fierce northern tribe recruits) without messing with the economic balance

Spartans:

• Spartan spearmen should be stronger then the usual spearmen in phase 1, he should deal more damage
• The skirmisher in my opinion should have more precision but take more time between shots(in proportions). another
• Elite soldiers and champions would deal double damage or be faster when they are at really low health sort of like a last stand,
• Price of skirmisher: 60 food and 50 wood
• Price of spear: 60 food and 50 wood
• Females have better gathering rate on wood,metal and stone then the other females.

The idea on hoplites isn't bad, it's one of the ways to have them different and historical, it could also mix well with existing suggestions. The rest seem more or less like random things popping out of your head, or hard to implement for no real value (last stand - can just make them stronger).

Romans:

• For the Romans i suggest: first of all they had heavy javelins so i would make them deal more damage be slower.and able to carry more resources on them.
• Price of skirmisher: 10 metal 40 food and 50 wood

That would be the pilum used by swordsmen, not skirmisher javelins. Iberians had heavy javelins as well, before the Romans. I'd make such a thing a tech buffing swordmen's missile damage if pre-charge projectiles are implemented at some point.

Mauryans:

• Troops a bit weaker both in damage and in health
• Train a bit faster
• Price: 40 wood and 60 food.

That should be the case for Persian and Mauryan early units (besides the cost - it should be unit-dependent and the cost differences should be on wood. An average human would eat more or less the same no matter where he's from).

Iberians:

• First of all the starting wall they have is a palisade.
• Less health and less damage but faster and cheaper houses 60 wood
• Gathering rates increase the higher level they are

As I've told you before.. replacing starting walls with palisades solves only half the issue. Weird wall pre-placement and forced town layouts remain and the desired starting stone fort aspect is lost. I'd say make the civ center a fort. One more default arrow and some extra health and here's the forty-anti rush attribute without many issues. Weaker soldiers don't really fit with Iberians imo and the house bonus is a boring one, unless we really lack bonuses for them or it somehow really fits with some other of their aspects.

Your last suggestion on them could prove interesting from a gameplay perspective. Since they are a mostly defensive faction, they are prone to choice by new players and not having to micro veterans in and out of eco would be helpful to them (or to players like myself who almost never bother with that anyway). It could also just not decrease for them instead of increasing.

Ptolomies:

• Make Archers + cost 10 food or train slower

Ptol archers might be a common strategy but it should be removed imo. A mercenary unit, spammable in the village phase and one that wasn't even used by it's faction doesn't seem right. If we want a civ with heavy early metal use for mercs so that this tactic isn't lost, let's have that be Carthage. I'll also repeat that imo mercs should cost metal (their payment) and if full metal is too much, food instead of wood (they'd be fed by army supplies/not wood, and this is not messing with game balance anyway since they both are common resources). They should also train faster than other units overall.

Another thing that could be added in order to increase balance is if some civs already started with some techs upgraded for example a good farmer civ could have the first farmer tech already upgraded.

I'd say a good farmer civ should have a default farming bonus. Let's keep the econ tech-tree clear.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Lion.Kanzen]

army mercenary camp is a Gaia building in my concept is not able to build and yes for controlling by players.

[Prodigal Son]

army mercenary camp is a Gaia building in my concept is not able to build and yes for controlling by players.

This isn't a bad alternative, it's quite a different approach though and not fitting with civ specific discussions.

[tau]

Iberians:

• First of all the starting wall they have is a palisade.
• Less health and less damage but faster and cheaper houses 60 wood
• Gathering rates increase the higher level they are

I agree that something has to be done to iberian starting bonus. As for the houses stats change suggested, i think it would make Iberians less different from other non-hellenic civs. Celts and Mauryans have cheap 5-pop houses too, and this fits them as more or less 'booming' civs. Iberians are a 'defensive' civ, so their structures should stay slow to built and robust.

[LordIgorIIIofKiev]

That should be the case for Persian and Mauryan early units (besides the cost - it should be unit-dependent and the cost differences should be on wood. An average human would eat more or less the same no matter where he's from).

First of all food is not only for eating, it is also were leather armor comes from ?

No

and i think u misunderstood the whole point of what i am trying to do

i am trying to make eco at beginning different for civs so that they actually every civ has a different style of playing instead of the monotone 50 food 50 wood

and how would this be more confusing to new players if they do not know what confusing is ?

how is 50 food 50 wood less confusing

and most of my ideas are not hard to impliment

+ the iberians were barbarians they didnt have as solid buildings as you imagine it

[Prodigal Son]

First of all food is not only for eating, it is also were leather armor comes from ?

No

and i think u misunderstood the whole point of what i am trying to do

i am trying to make eco at beginning different for civs so that they actually every civ has a different style of playing instead of the monotone 50 food 50 wood

and how would this be more confusing to new players if they do not know what confusing is ?

how is 50 food 50 wood less confusing

and most of my ideas are not hard to impliment

+ the iberians were barbarians they didnt have as solid buildings as you imagine it

I get the point but I wouldn't represent leather as food (nor we need to represent every tiny gear piece on each soldier, just the most obvious ones). It's not coming just from animals anyway. If we wanted too accurate resource costs, then almost all soldiers should cost food+wood+metal+more and we'd need to add many extra resources as well, while 4 is seems like the limit in all successful RTS games and 2 resources types per unit seem to also be the limit while we already have 3 for some units.

Major starting economy differences would make it hard for begginers, not because they already know the game, but because they'd have a hard time changing from civ to civ. They also are REALLY hard to balance in a game with 12 civs. Even in games with few civs major differences come little by little in the tech tree and mostly later on, for a good reason. A rather unified early game is a good way to go. Same with not having players focus on too many different resources early on. Same with units of the same type costing the same resource types for all factions. Differences like civs having a focus on wooden or clay (free) structures is acceptable and realistic, but adding many extras on top of that is not.

Things that would be easy to change without being gamebreaking are unit strengths (with appropriate cost adjustments) but the citizen soldier concept isn't very generous with that. So, we need more well thought ideas on it. Unless we go with things like what you suggested like "faster macedonian skirmishers carrying less resources to balance it out", but this looks like poor design and unrealistic to me. Same with things like Athenian houses costing more in total, two resources instead of one, handicapping the stone they would need for a slinger strategy that is also one of the two "rare" resources (and why they should be different from other greek (etc) houses of the same look and materials?). I'd love to be enlightened on why the stone fortifications of the "barbarian" Iberians would be better represented by wooden palisades than by a stronger Civic Center. And still that wasn't my major point. I could go on and with more detail on many of those suggestions.

Don't get me wrong or get angry like it's something personal, I just disagree with you on many concepts. I still believe a good portion of your suggestions here and in general is interesting and realistic (mostly the environmental/pve things) but still it's majority wouldn't fit well for RTS gameplay, especially the 0 A.D. kind. I've noted the ones I liked here. Another portion of them are not well thought as if you ignore the aim of history meets gameplay in order to just to propose something. Unless you just don't explain some of them enough and I get something wrong. By hard to implement I mean the ones that require extra programming.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[LordIgorIIIofKiev]

Ok, first thing you need to understand that 0.AD is not made towards beginners and bad players, it is made towards average to good players, what i am saying that having different civ prices and stuff would allow more for players to develop completely their own style of playing instead of it ending up like age of empires 2 were every good player has exactly the same economy style as every other good player, which is boring, the main focus of what i am trying to do here is giving the opportunity for people instead of copying a page to page BO but develop their unique own style of playing, adding much more uniqueness to each player instead of having a monotone game were every first 10 mins of every game are exactly the same. The thing is as well is letting the "new player" being able to try civ. and decide which will go better with their game instead of being forced to do something that maybe doesn't come naturally to them because it is the only choice, and where do i ignore the point of history?

and why athenians have 40 stone, well this is interesting, you wanted more historically correct the athenians built the nicest cities and had the best houses and infra structure out of all the Hellenic civilisations, that enough?

next you think not to include leather but wood is definitely less uses in on a solder then leather, many soldiers didn't have metal armour but leather since it was lighter and less heavy and many civilisations were not as good with metal as others Hope you understand

Edited November 6, 2014 by LordIgorIIIofKiev

[LordIgorIIIofKiev]

As I've told you before.. replacing starting walls with palisades solves only half the issue. Weird wall pre-placement and forced town layouts remain and the desired starting stone fort aspect is lost. I'd say make the civ center a fort. One more default arrow and some extra health and here's the forty-anti rush attribute without many issues. Weaker soldiers don't really fit with Iberians imo and the house bonus is a boring one, unless we really lack bonuses for them or it somehow really fits with some other of their aspects.

Your last suggestion on them could prove interesting from a gameplay perspective. Since they are a mostly defensive faction, they are prone to choice by new players and not having to micro veterans in and out of eco would be helpful to them (or to players like myself who almost never bother with that anyway). It could also just not decrease for them instead of increasing.

first of all iberians are not a very defensive faction, they have a strong base but use skirmishing and guerrilla warfare as a tactic instead of a controlling territory tactic, they will attack what you aren't defending well, they attack by surprise and they flee from battle when they cannot win and hide within their walls,

The difference between your ideas and my ideas is that your are saying here you have a civ this is what its good at "do that", what i am trying to say is here you have a civ, get creative.

But I do like your ideas about reforms very nice lots of new troops seems excessive and complicated and i really enjoyed your tech ideas

And i also say we should sit down and discuss this together prod.

Edited November 6, 2014 by LordIgorIIIofKiev

[Prodigal Son]

I like what you aim for, I just don't believe most of your suggestions would help to achieve that. A good game takes in consideration players of all skill levels. A very different economic model from civ to civ, besides frustrating many newbies, will just end with people copying the most successful builds and civ choices. A balanced one helps prevent that, actually adding more variety in the long run. Keep in mind that when water maps are really playable and corrals properly implemented, the early game will get more variety just by that, having two more viable food sources on many maps and one more on all of them. Which will also lead to various side effects.. corrals fitting with cavalry builds, fishing boats allowing civic centers to focus more on military production and goes on.

If you want to discuss anything in detail, I'm currently (and pretty often) on the irc dev chat.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Zeta1127]

The different economic specializations between each civilization, like the Ptolemies specializing in farming and the Carthaginians specializing in naval trade, will also make all of the civilizations more unique while still having a core economic framework across all civilizations. Herding animals in corrals for either a trickle of food or production bonuses and the full implementation of navies will definitely go a long way toward diversifying things, because right now foraging, herding, and hunting are barely even utilized beyond the village phase before an immediate transition to farming occurs under most circumstances, unless the location is a map like Cantabrian Highlands with plentiful foraging opportunities. Trade doesn't even have any upgrades yet, and fishing and naval trade are too hard to utilize in general right now with the inefficient pathfinder. Things will get better once all of the economic systems and the new pathfinder have been implemented.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I take this idea from AOK

Persians

-Start with 50+ wood, food

- work rate +10% First Phase , +15% Second Phase, +20% Third Phase

This way it's a boom economy civ.