Alpha 17 Balancing Branch

[niektb]

How about decreasing the buildtime from structures? (non defensive)

[auron2401]

Some new changes as of 9 hours ago. blacksmith techs this time.

https://github.com/scythetwirler/0ad/commit/6e0eb29b546daa9316f0e1390e6b33af2b1e8e1f

And some other small items.

[zzippy]

....yeah.

Also walkspeed reduced a little (-10% average) ?

[tau]

They were moved temporarily to a git branch to avoid merge conflicts, but they will not be removed forever. So it's ok to keep discussing about these balancing changes

To bring a really valuable input to the discussion, one needs to try out the changes. Where can Mythos' balance branch be obtained now? And is any further balancing work in this branch planned?

Sorry about the "surprise" commit, but there needs to be discussion about multiple ways to balance, not just one "balance branch" with 3 or 4 guys playing it intermittently.

I'd say '3-4 guys playing intermittently' is an understatement for scythe' balance branch. And for sure, more people played sbb than svn since when sbb was created. However, groups playing together have some gameplay preferences so that some changes probably don't get enough attention.

Does anyone have an idea how to find more players who are motivated to play both branches actively and give feedback?

Also concerned that currently there is no easy way to follow balancing discussions. Some balancing topics being discussed on irc/at sbb lobby/etc stay not covered in this thread.

• You can mix and match your balancing ideas with this or discard it altogether.

At first sight, many changes from both branches really seem to be compatible. But one of the major questions is if the counter system should be removed or kept and refined. Would be interesting to read opinions on this.

[Stan`]

I think an excel file (so that everybody could edit it) with all features/ideas could be a nice idea. Of course most people should read it and vote for features nerf, and at the end there should be only a few lines remaining ie things people can't settle on like nerf cavaly make it OP. Does it seems like a nice idea for you ?

[av93]

It wouldn't be a good idea to show info about the 0 ad version (and mod) in the lobby, with filters? This way testing should be easier.

Right now what happens to players that connect to lobby with different versions?

[zzippy]

It wouldn't be a good idea to show info about the 0 ad version (and mod) in the lobby, with filters? This way testing should be easier.

Right now what happens to players that connect to lobby with different versions?

Each branch has its own lobby. Otherwise there would be a nice oos party ...

Edited August 22, 2014 by zzippy

[zzippy]

I think an excel file (so that everybody could edit it) with all features/ideas could be a nice idea. Of course most people should read it and vote for features nerf, and at the end there should be only a few lines remaining ie things people can't settle on like nerf cavaly make it OP. Does it seems like a nice idea for you ?

I think this idea is better realised in a general feature/gameplay thread. It is important that existing balance changes are not only rated by reading, but by testing.

Means: Install and play the balance branch and install and play svn/a17, as scythe said in the 1rst post of this thread:

Though please try to refrain from making balance criticisms until you've played a couple multiplayer games so that everyone is on the same page.

Edited August 22, 2014 by zzippy

[Stan`]

Well then we should make one, but it should be moderated. I could moderate it (Since I'm out) and let you guys share your thoughts. What do you think ?

[zzippy]

A few thoughts:

Not so easy to create that excel file. Mythos -reverted- changes have been (afair) huge. Many changes affect each other, so its hard to rate a single change. Also the players skill is important. Spoken for me, I am in fact kinda noob; though playing svn and sbb for hours, my thoughts/ratings about balance differences might be pretty useless due to much less experience in rts games in general.

There was a discussion to start a tournament in svn (aimed at bughunting before a17 release) in the forum. Maybe thats a way to start? This tournament could be enlarged to the balance branches, players had to install svn, sbb and mbb. Then players could vote/discuss for features/changes. On the other hand, since svn doesn't differ in balancing compared to a16 so much, it might be less work if scythe would merge his branch to svn. svn anyway should be tested before feature freeze by as many players as possible, so its np to rate the balancing changes too while bughunting.

I yet dunno if the mergecandidate branch contents huge changes like the taken out hardboni and formations. This might even be more a design than a balancing question, though the hardboni in fact fight unbalancing. There is also a document by alpha123 about hardbonus in general: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PxeSahVf5J6h32jy2iqTHlnogtQSHPocXKqNSspyMUs/edit?pli=1

Back to that excel document:

Maybe start with a list of players which agree to install svn and sbb (if there will be no merge in near future)? Imho we urgently need more players, tau already asked how to achieve this; maybe the mods/devs could create kinda official thread appealing to join (besides guerilla advertisement in a16 lobby/irc)?

Edited August 23, 2014 by zzippy

[zzippy]

New Blacksmith Tech Tree

Apparantly there is some discussion needed regarding the new techtree, cuz scythe needs feedback. Please only comment if you tested it, means you play scythe' balance branch.

Overview of all blacksmith techs available for all (afaik) civs:

Town phase:
+20% attack for melee inf 500F/500W/250I/250S 40sec
+20% attack for ranged inf 500F/500W/250I/250S 40sec

+20% attack for melee cav 500F/750W/350I 40sec
+20% attack for ranged cav 500F/750W/350I 40sec

+1 hack & pierce armor for all inf 1000W/350I 40sec
+1 hack & pierce armor for all cav 1000W/350I 40sec

City phase:
+20% attack for melee inf 500F/500W/450I/250S 40sec
+20% attack for ranged inf 500F/500W/350I/250S 40sec

+20% attack for melee cav 500F/500W/500I 40sec
+20% attack for ranged cav 500F/500W/500I 40sec

+1 hack & pierce armor for all inf 1000W/450I 40sec
+1 hack & pierce armor for all cav 1000W/450I 40sec

+2 hack & pierce armor for heroes, but + 50% metal cost 600I 40sec

Happy testing...

Edited August 30, 2014 by zzippy

[auron2401]

And some changes as a result from those things testingas

Decreases attack early game to account for blacksmith techs.

Transitions house techs.

That last one unpairs all the house techs, and makes them loads more expensive. methinks this is good.

Edited August 31, 2014 by auron2401

[zzippy]

Hello everyone,

Due to some of the imbalances of gameplay in Alpha 16 (notably early cavalry rushes), I have started a re-balancing GitHub branch for experimental gameplay balancing purposes.

Mission accomplished.

After hours of testing, I want to summarize:

1. A16ish horsegame is successfully eliminated.

2. Hardcounters not missing; beginners of 0ad will enjoy it, no need to learn them.

3. New blacksmith techtree is ok. Think its not extremely relevant for balancing anyway, more a gameplay question. Also depends on map(size) and resources.

What I would change:

1. Walkspeed. Just decrease it a little again.

2. Civilcenters are a little strong (in village phase) due to arrow range/rate. Just decrease it a little again.

Thats it.

Merge it at last ..

Edited September 1, 2014 by zzippy

[thamlett]

Sounds like we're getting there....

And just in time too....

[zzippy]

"Tech transition is mostly over. Please test the impacts of these new techs.

Please test the merge20140902 branch for bugs in the bleeding edge version."

Instructions:

git fetch originalgit checkout merge20140902

and recompile if on Linux.

The newest changes:

Fortress minimum distance increased:

Now 80m instead of 60m.

Tower minimum distance increased:

Now 60m instead of 50m.

Tower arrow range decreased:

Now 56m instead of 57m. (@scythe: intention or typo? )

New techs for towers:

New arrow range increase tech for towers:

+8m at cost of 500W/250M

New tower armor increase tech at cost of 500W/500M/500S

First thought, after short test:

Like this. Especially the increased fortress minimum distance (+33%) is great, cuz it nerfs the "fortress_forward_tactics".

Also "tower_forwarding" now costs money (the new tower arrow reach increase tech), since without that tech a tower cannot cover another with arrows.

Edited September 4, 2014 by zzippy

[niektb]

I would love to check the branch out. Is there anyway I can resume downloading? (Maybe by an external server?)

[zzippy]

google says:

If a pull hung up, it will not write any changes to your filesystem. This is because, if it would, your local repository would not be in a stable state. There is no way to resume a pull/clone. So your only choice is to pull/clone again.

[niektb]

Hence I wondered if someone else has the branch on a server which I would be able to checkout.

Edit: I see I can check it out on my laptop at school (unfortunately that doesn't apply to my desktop on which I have 0 A.D. normally running)

Edited September 4, 2014 by niektb

[Stan`]

Hence I wondered if someone else has the branch on a server which I would be able to checkout.

Edit: I see I can check it out on my laptop at school (unfortunately that doesn't apply to my desktop on which I have 0 A.D. normally running)

The merge candidate should be tested:

git fetch origin then git checkout merge20140902 then git pull

You need to clone it first though.

Edited September 4, 2014 by stanislas69

[Nakamura]

Glad to see you guys working on this, good luck! Skirm cavs/tower or wall spam ruined by experience a few releases prior to the current one.

[zzippy]

Balance branch finally got merged (big "tnx" to scythe) into svn (a17). So, pls play svn, only 1 week left until feature freeze.....

[auron2401]

On a happy note.

ERMAGHERD MUSIC UPDATE.

[iNcog]

So the balancing branch went through to SVN in A17? That's nice to hear.

So, can some of the testers talk a bit about how the game now plays out?

[serveurix]

So the balancing branch went through to SVN in A17? That's nice to hear.

So, can some of the testers talk a bit about how the game now plays out?

I've tested a bit yesterday. Of course I haven't completely gotten used to the new changes (I think it will take me some time before I can beat Petra on hard now ^^' ).

I like the new economy paradigm, with a rich tech tree, fast gatherers and very expensive war technologies. It makes the game much more challenging (the gaming experience is now closer to what I used to see in Warzone).

I also like the effectiveness of female citizen, their short training time makes them much more interesting in the early game (before this change you had almost no interest in training female citizen, except if you were out of anything but food).

Surprisingly, Petra is doing very well with those complete balance changes. Perhaps even better than before. Walls are more necessary than ever to protect my trade roads. The fact that they are slower to build makes them even more crucial, that's good.

I also love the new technology in the wonder that gives a +50 pop bonus. I'm surprised it's a technology though, I would have imagined a bonus given by the wonder, that disappear when the wonder is destroyed.

On the down side, I would say that infantry has become ridiculously resistant to slingers and javelinists, and that farms are a bit too strong. I'm also afraid that there's not enough diversity in the costs of the units now (they all require a lot of food, most of them require a lot of wood), but I've only played romans and iberians so far.

[WhiteTreePaladin]

Walls are rarely used in a lot of RTS games. I hope they are stronger if they take longer to build or I'll probably never get to see them used anywhere.