Mapmaking issues (and some suggestions)

[60and80]

Before I start, I am a Mac user.

Please don't hate. We are people too.

I think that the mapmaking should be a little easier to use. As I have been play AOE for quite a while (and was very happy to meet 0AD), I have experience making maps, but someone just entering the genre may have issues.

I think that the editor should be configurable (rebind controls, see what controls are, etc.), and a little more like the AOE editor. I accept that the editor itself is not high priority, but simplified unit lists would also be appreciated e.g. Thrace Black Cloak instead of units/thrace_black_cloak.

Another minor, but highly problematic (at least to me) problem (?): I noticed that after using the select tool to select units in the Atlas editor, the delete key wouldn't work to delete them, although it is supposed to. Whether this is a Mac keyboard issue, a general Mac issue, or a universal issue, I can't tell, but it is incredibly irritating, and will continue to be until this is fixed.

Also, the editor sometimes decides to scroll infinitely in one direction. The seems to be no fix other than to exit and restart the map editor.

Cliffs would be nice, and I see that they are on the in-development list (http://trac.wildfire...ayFeatureStatus)

Except these issues, and a few others I can think of, I still love the game.

Edited February 23, 2013 by 60and80

[idanwin]

If we hated MAC users, why did we make this game available to you ;-)

For the infinite scrolling, does pressing the arrow key of the direction in which you are travelling help? I sometimes have this problem when the releasing of an arrow key happens when the cursor is no longer focused on the atlas window (I change the music track while scrolling for example).

Atlas is still a very rough tool, it has all that is necessary for mapmaking (except triggers maybe), but it is not very customizable or clean. The game is still in Alpha, so the map editor isn't really that important right now. (altough fixing these delete problems wouldn't be a bad thing) A better entity/actor selection tab will certainly be available some time in the future, but it is not on the priority list right now. The developers are mainly focused on the game and not on the editor at the time.

I personally have never experienced this problem with the delete key. Does the delete key work in the atlas text inputs?

[quantumstate]

The infinite scroll issue sounds bad. It helps a lot with these things if you can find a set of steps to reproduce the issue. That way a developer can follow your steps and see the infinite scrolling happen which makes it a lot easier to find the problem in the code and fix it.

[sanderd17]

The infinite scroll issue sounds bad. It helps a lot with these things if you can find a set of steps to reproduce the issue. That way a developer can follow your steps and see the infinite scrolling happen which makes it a lot easier to find the problem in the code and fix it.

I think the problem with the delete button is worse than the infinite scrolling (from a usability point of view). How can you edit a map if you need to get everything right from the first time? It's like going back to the typewriter age.

I never had problems with the delete button though. @OP, are you sure you use the right cursor (the 4-way arrow cursor)?

[historic_bruno]

I think that the editor should be configurable (rebind controls, see what controls are, etc.), and a little more like the AOE editor. I accept that the editor itself is not high priority, but simplified unit lists would also be appreciated e.g. Thrace Black Cloak instead of units/thrace_black_cloak.

Both of these are vaguely planned. The Atlas hotkeys system is completely separate from the game itself, so it would be nice to unify them. I guess that's also related to the current work on the config system: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/1810

Another minor, but highly problematic (at least to me) problem (?): I noticed that after using the select tool to select units in the Atlas editor, the delete key wouldn't work to delete them, although it is supposed to. Whether this is a Mac keyboard issue, a general Mac issue, or a universal issue, I can't tell, but it is incredibly irritating, and will continue to be until this is fixed.

Hmm, which selection tool are you using? Is the simulation test running or reset/inactive? I suppose it could be a keyboard issue, but if so it's the first I've heard of this.

Also, the editor sometimes decides to scroll infinitely in one direction. The seems to be no fix other than to exit and restart the map editor.

That sounds like this known problem: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/1126

Cliffs would be nice, and I see that they are on the in-development list (http://trac.wildfire...ayFeatureStatus)

I think now it's extremely unlikely that cliffs will make it into Part 1, but there's always a chance someone could decide to work on them. They are just very low priority compared to everything else.

[kosmo]

If you cannot delete them, because you can't select them:

To select those objects, press the Alt-key when you click/drag

Then you can delete them with the delete-key

[MishFTW]

This may not work but if we import RAW files for terrain (from something like Unity), it should create cliffs. I can't back up my claim but hopefully one of the developers can

[zoot]

This may not work but if we import RAW files for terrain (from something like Unity), it should create cliffs. I can't back up my claim but hopefully one of the developers can

Regrettably, no. Nice looking cliffs have overhangs, which is not supported by the heightmap terrain we use.

[60and80]

I can select everything fine, I just can't delete it unless I use undo. Even then, I can't delete preset units from generating a map.

[60and80]

And I can't reproduce the issue, but it happens once every 10 minutes or so.

And I can select units just fine, but can't delete them.

I think it's a mac keyboard issue. In Garry's Mod the mac delete key doesn't work properly either.

[60and80]

Maybe a mac Atlas editor sub-protocol?

Like register the Mac delete key as the same thing as the Windows delete key?

Oh, and thanks for making the game available to the Mac. Best Mac game at the moment.

[feneur]

Regrettably, no. Nice looking cliffs have overhangs, which is not supported by the heightmap terrain we use.

Ah, I have been thinking whether there really is a need for cliffs when you can create steep terrain directly in the map, but you present an argument for why they still have a place I really don't think they should be anywhere near a priority for part 1 though, but I guess they can be nice in some cases

[historic_bruno]

Maybe a mac Atlas editor sub-protocol?

Like register the Mac delete key as the same thing as the Windows delete key?

I think you're right about this. Mac keyboards only have a Delete key, unlike PC keyboards that also have a Backspace key. But the Mac Delete key in reality functions like Backspace, so "apparently" wxWidgets (which we use for keyboard input in Atlas) treats it like Backspace. What you can try is using Fn + Delete to get a PC delete-style action. That's a possible workaround, but I see no problem with us also accepting Backspace as a hotkey. Edit: if you have a keyboard with number pad, you might also be able to use the X Delete button for the same functionality.

Do you experience a similar problem in the game, deleting your units?

[60and80]

No, because I just select them and hit the skull button

Thx will try

It worked! Yay!

Thank you Historic Bruno! Now I can make maps for real!

[junglejim88]

I think the scenario editor is pretty intuitive and easy to use. I used the AOE editor years ago and also revisited it in the last couple of days and it makes the atlas editor seem pretty simple. But obviously if someone like the poter (60and80) is familiar with the AOE editor, then sure they would like it to be 'like' the AOE editor, but i say why should it? Why draw lines between the two editors just because the games are similar?

[historic_bruno]

No, because I just select them and hit the skull button

Thx will try

It worked! Yay!

Thank you Historic Bruno! Now I can make maps for real!

No problem! Can you try using the Delete key (without Fn) in game to test if it works? I would like to fix both at the same time if necessary. It may be that wxWidgets and SDL handle the keyboards differently. It's not exactly hard to press Fn+Delete but it's less intuitive.

[60and80]

k

No, you need to press fn- delete in game too.

[historic_bruno]

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, there is a possible conflict I didn't think of earlier, the Backspace key is already assigned to session time warp mode. That's probably a bad choice of a hotkey, since Mac keyboards don't have an obvious Backspace key. Maybe we can find a different shortcut for time warp rewind, and use Backspace or Delete for deletions (I think that's logical). I'd like to avoid special behavior that only applies to one OS since that makes specifying hotkeys more difficult and more confusing.

Alternatively, we could add instructions to the manual whenever we reference the Delete key:

Delete: Delete currently selected unit/units/building/buildings (use Fn+Delete on Apple keyboards)

[Pedro Falcão]

I think different standards are confusing, principally for new users. When you are introduced to a game by your friends (and that's a far too common practice), you'll ask first your friend, about the game controls, and if the key that works for your friend doesn't work for you, you'll surely think it's bugged. Of course it's not that hard to find it's not bugged, but IMHO, ppl should be spared of this inconvenience.