Design Iberian circuit wall

[Mythos_Ruler]

But the Iberians aren't really overpowered at all... Ask any of the players on #0ad irc chatroom. Yes, they are mostly immune from early raids, but in the overall scheme of things they may actually be a little underpowered.

[sanderd17]

Well, IMO, it's mainly their cav champion skirmishers that are massively strong. But if you know that as opponent, you just train a lot of spearmen

[scythetwirler]

Iberians, imo, are overpowered in terms of tanking. If you have ~4 garrisoned fortresses with a row of 20 champion cavalry skirmishers behind them, it is virtually impenetrable. Rams and elephants are reduced to dust by the time they reach the fortresses due to the champion cavalry skirmishers (and fortress arrows). Catapults are taken down extremely quickly by the champion cavalry skirmishers (from a safe distance). Spearmen are also not able to counter them without suffering heavy losses from the garrisoned fortresses.

Edited September 2, 2013 by scythetwirler

[Mythos_Ruler]

Iberians, imo, are overpowered in terms of tanking. If you have ~4 garrisoned fortresses with a row of 20 champion cavalry skirmishers behind them, it is virtually impenetrable. Rams and elephants are reduced to dust by the time they reach the fortresses due to the champion cavalry skirmishers (and fortress arrows). Catapults are taken down extremely quickly by the champion cavalry skirmishers (from a safe distance). Spearmen are also not able to counter them without suffering heavy losses from the garrisoned fortresses.

Indeed, but that has nothing to do with their walls. I think their free walls are a cool bonus and they don't negatively affect the game. Other things, like what you mention here, are problems.

[auron2401]

Excuse me as I revive this from the dead.

The Iberian Circuit wall is silly. Seriously. Not only does it make iberians unplayable on smaller, more compact maps but nearly everyone i know just deletes the walls. They only serve to block your early game expansion and don't help you so much as impede you.

They also are dependant on the map. If a map is designed without iberian walls in mind (or just forgotten about al-together) Iberians are one bonus down, where everyone else has 2 - iberians have only 1.

This NEEDS to be rethought.

Edit: No I don't have a better idea. I'm just reviving the conversation so that anyone who DOES have a better idea can say it.

Edited August 24, 2014 by auron2401

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

If a map is designed without iberian walls in mind

I think maps should be designed with all features in mind. And I also think the maps are too cramped with or without the Iberian walls. The random maps need redesigned/rethought. It would be better to have 10 or 12 really well-designed random maps than 30 random maps that are all cramped and weird and don't take into account game mechanics and features.

Edited August 24, 2014 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[LordGood]

I think maps should be designed with all features in mind. And I also think the maps are too cramped with or without the Iberian walls. The random maps need redesigned.

then we have a plethora of maps that serve the exact same purpose, and less wiggle room for mapmakers to actually be creative. As a modding community we need to give mapmakers more freedom through more versatile gameplay mechanics, not force them to adapt to the pitfalls of the game.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

then we have a plethora of maps that serve the exact same purpose,

You will have maps that serve the game mechanics.

and less wiggle room for mapmakers to actually be creative. As a modding community we need to give mapmakers more freedom through more versatile gameplay mechanics, not force them to adapt to the pitfalls of the game.

IMHO, giving map makers 100% freedom and creativity should not be a priority. There are obviously 100 other different features and mechanics in the game that the map makers need to take into account. Iberian walls are no different in this regard. And as I said, the maps are crammed and weird for all players, not just Iberians, so the maps just need better design overall. All just my opinion. Why are metal and stone mines right next to the civ center on almost every map? Shouldn't the player need to scout for these precious deposits of minerals? That's what I'm saying -- rethink all the maps to take into account the game's features and mechanics. So far it doesn't look like this has been done. Not for the Iberians. Not for much else.

[LordGood]

You will have maps that serve the game mechanics.

IMHO, giving map makers 100% freedom and creativity should not be a priority. There are obviously 100 other different features and mechanics in the game that the map makers need to take into account. Iberian walls are no different in this regard. And as I said, the maps are crammed and weird for all players, not just Iberians, so the maps just need better design overall. All just my opinion. Why are metal and stone mines right next to the civ center on almost every map? Shouldn't the player need to scout for these precious deposits of minerals? That's what I'm saying -- rethink all the maps to take into account the game's features and mechanics. So far it doesn't look like this has been done. Not for the Iberians. Not for much else.

I agree with moving starting metal and stone away from the CC, that primary exploration was key to AOE, and it was much more of a delight when you found what you needed. That would be nice to have in 0 AD

I love the walls, but I doubt their necessary enough to impede on map maker freedoms. This doesnt mean the walls need to go away, it just means they have to change in some manner to make them more compatible with their surroundings. I've often had trees and walls overlap and confuse workers, which is kinda annoying. The Iberian civ is already a strong defensive civilization. There are more ways to defend against early rushes than a wall

[FeXoR]

Iberians, imo, are overpowered in terms of tanking. If you have ~4 garrisoned fortresses with a row of 20 champion cavalry skirmishers behind them, it is virtually impenetrable. Rams and elephants are reduced to dust by the time they reach the fortresses due to the champion cavalry skirmishers (and fortress arrows). Catapults are taken down extremely quickly by the champion cavalry skirmishers (from a safe distance). Spearmen are also not able to counter them without suffering heavy losses from the garrisoned fortresses.

As said before that's not a problem with walls.

And as I stated long before champion cavalry skirmishers are "general game rule breakers" (like Hunnic Tarcans was in AoC but additionally with ranged attacks) due to their crush damage. They are fast, have range, are decent against all other units and especially strong against buildings and siege weapons (in stark contrast to other non-siege ranged units).

wowgetoffyourcellphone:

I agree with your proposal removing the stone/metal resources from the start locations.

For Iberians, however, that would mean they have no such resources inside their walls. Not sure if that would be good or bad.

Concerning entities (e.g. trees) in walls: I'm working on this for random maps now that RMGen has access to the entity templates.

Edited August 25, 2014 by FeXoR

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

wowgetoffyourcellphone:

I agree with your proposal removing the stone/metal resources from the start locations.

For Iberians, however, that would mean they have no such resources inside their walls. Not sure if that would be good or bad.

Concerning entities (e.g. trees) in walls: I'm working on this for random maps now that RMGen has access to the entity templates.

I think that would lessen the "overpoweredness" of the free walls. I think the walls should be looked at as some kind of inner defense against rushing and all that, to protect the houses, temples, and such things instead of something that encompasses a bunch of resources so that the player can gather behind them. Overall I think players should have to move out away from the Civic center to get to the bulk of their early resources. In short, the player should in general need to build both a farmstead and storehouse in the early game to get an efficient income trickle. Having everything all bundled up against the starting civicenter made the walls overpowered by default. This was a flaw in map design, not a flaw with the walls.

Edited August 25, 2014 by wowgetoffyourcellphone