===[COMMITTED]=== Mauryan Docks and Ships

[Mythos_Ruler]

Perhaps a good Merchant Ship.

Fishing Boat.

[Josh]

Has anyone started on the Mauryan Docks yet?

References (from Mauryan Thread):

http://bharatdiscove...1/15/Lothal.jpg

This will be hard.. I'll re-post some stuff I've posted.

Spoiler

Sanghamitra(Ashoka's daughter) goes to Sri Lanka

Spoiler

A double masted ship, Satavahana era. Not much detail, but it looks like a large/medium sized double masted ship.

http://tech.groups.y...gy/message/3343

Spoiler

Double masted ships from Javaese reliefs. I believe it's Indian influenced, but it's at a very later era(8th,9th). Could be useful though.

Spoiler

Smaller ships from that era.

Spoiler

^^^

From Ajanta cave

Rare image of an Indus civ ship

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Also from the wiki:

NAVY

• Generic Name: Fisherman.
  
• Specific Name: Matsyapalak.
  
  • Class: Fishing Boat.
    
  • Appearance:
    
    • Shell: -
      

    [*]History: .

    [*]Garrison: Cannot.

    [*]Garrison Capacity: 1; support, infantry

    [*]Function: Gathering: Only method of collecting meat from fish.

    [*]Special: Garrison a support unit or infantry unit inside to boost fishing rate.

• Generic Name: Trading Ship.
  
• Specific Name: Vanijyik Nauka.
  
  • Class: Merchant Ship.
    
  • Appearance:
    
    • Shell: .
      

    [*]History: .

    [*]Garrison: Cannot.

    [*]Function: Sets up trade routes between friendly Ports.

    [*]Special: Garrison a Trader inside to boost the amount of trade received.

• Generic Name: Light Warship.
  
• Specific Name: Yudhpot.
  
  • Class: Light Warship.
    
  • Appearance:
    
    • Shell: .
      

    [*]History: .

    [*]Garrison: Cannot.

    [*]Function: .

    [*]Special: -

• Generic Name: Medium Warship.
  
• Specific Name: Yudhpot.
  
  • Class: Medium Warship.
    
  • Appearence:
    
    • Shell: .
      

    [*]History: .

    [*]Garrison: Cannot.

    [*]Function: .

    [*]Special: .

• Generic Name: Harbour.
  
• Specific Name: Naukasthanaka.
  
  • Class: Dock.
    
  • History: .
    

----------------EDIT1---------------------------

Another reference I found was this (http://en.wikipedia....aritime_history) page which has a lot of interesting information on early Indian trade.

To sum it up, the Mauryan period was one when India's first navy was formed and trade began to flourish with the Mediterranean (primarily with the Romans) as the Mauryans began exploring their maritime neighbors.

----------------EDIT2---------------------------

Added Mauryan Harbor info to wiki section.

----------------EDIT3---------------------------

The Paṭṭiṉappālai is dated from about 100BC-100AD (http://en.wikipedia..../Pattinappaalai) and contains detailed accounts about a thriving trade city. If anyone can find it in English I think it could be a valuable resource.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Josh

[Mythos_Ruler]

Not yet. Still collecting references for it. Thanks for posting the relevant Wiki info though!

[MishFTW]

I made some concepts that better artists could refine

[Josh]

Alright, today (eastern standard time) I'm hoping to start on the boats. But before I can start I have a few questions:

1. From the reference material do you think ships/boat of the period would only have been square-rigged or would they have also have had a lateen(triangle) sail?
   
2. What animations 'cues' are available to boats in 0ad? (Example: idle, move, attack...)
   

---Edit---

I think I'm going to go for something like this for the trading ship:

I know the picture is modern day but the boat type originated somewhere between 600BC and 600AD in the Indian Ocean-Red Sea area and have been used commercially since then. (Here's the Wikipedia article.)

---Edit 2---

Here's a history article that mentions the use of dhows shortly after or during the Mauryan period.

---Edit 3---

Another article

---Edit 4---

Another picture of a much larger dhow:

Edited November 5, 2012 by Josh

[lilstewie]

This boat isn't from India.

http://www.brighthub...nt-mesopotamia/

Edited November 5, 2012 by lilstewie

[Ludo38]

I made some concepts that better artists could refine

Can you post that here ?

[lilstewie]

Man, finding dock references for this period in India is going to be hardest.

Maybe someone here will find something awesome.

Edited November 6, 2012 by lilstewie

[Josh]

I finally got started on the fishing boat, here's a sneak peek:

[LordGood]

My brains are a heap of scrambled eggs, I've literally been sitting here modelling for the past two days

need sleep

must.... model.... one more

I'll refine everything laterr

[Ludo38]

Great start LordGood.

-I find the 2 entrance pillars too thick. And I'd see such building in timber rather than stone, so yeah, these columns are massive for such building. If you texture it, try it as an integral timber building. That might work very well.

-Also, I find the semi-circle ornament probably overpresent in all the buildings modeled by now, and I think that would be cool to try a variation. For example, why not removing the semi-circular face (the one facing the ocean) and let it be a kind of covered uplifted warehouse, with for example some structure helping the loading inside boats. Imagine a wood structure that connects the upper floor of the building to that sort of Torii gate you did put at the edge of the quays.

-Actually, I think again about removing the ornament that faces the ocean... Well, actually I find it very nice and interesting to have a good looking building when you arrive by boat to the city. So, the ornamentation of the building is probably important. Just try it in a different way. Maybe

That's just some ideas thrown to try to give more distinction between each buildings. Do as you feel right. And yes, don't forget to sleep !

[Almin]

Just to add another opinion: I don't think, the semi-circle ornament is overpresented. I would rather think the opposite: It equalises the buildings of the race and makes the player realize to which other player the building belongs immediately. It's a special characteristic of the Mauryan buildings so why don't use it in the game? It's historically correct and that's what the community also often focuses on (while crowdsourcing). And I don't think it goes on the nerves of a player. I think it's great!

Edited November 6, 2012 by Almin

[Josh]

Well I got a little bit more done on my fishing boat and I'm wondering if you think this design should be pursued or scraped? I've attached two pictures: the first picture is overall, the second is with hidden geometry on.

As always, suggestions are appreciated!

[lilstewie]

My brains are a heap of scrambled eggs, I've literally been sitting here modelling for the past two days

need sleep

must.... model.... one more

I'll refine everything laterr

Looks nice. Like the boat ties, maybe you can change to shape. Maybe round instead of square.

Edited November 6, 2012 by lilstewie

[Ludo38]

I don't think, the semi-circle ornament is overpresented. (...) It's a special characteristic of the Mauryan buildings so why don't use it in the game?

I never suggested not using it in the game. I just though we may try to have a few Mauryan buildings without it or with a fewer use of it. For now, I believe every Mauryan building model have this ornament at least once. I suggest a little bit of variety.

Just to illustrate my vision of variation : if you visualize a town in Ancient Rome, in Ancient Egypt or Ancient Greece, yes, you can see repetitive patterns, frescos and structural styles, but there never has to be an "obligatory" pattern. There indeed is a dominant style, but always a minority of different cases. I find that interesting to explore this minority while having it still clearly belonging to the civilization.

But maybe the Dock is not the building where to try a variation about this ornament...

The market may be adapted to try a light architecture that could avoid this semi-circular ornament.

[Ludo38]

Well I got a little bit more done on my fishing boat and I'm wondering if you think this design should be pursued or scraped? I've attached two pictures: the first picture is overall, the second is with hidden geometry on.

As always, suggestions are appreciated!

Hi Josh! Thanks for your work on the boat! I find the hull too V-shaped looking from the side. You should inspire yourself more from the source photo, don't you think ? I like your sail, and on the contrary I think the mast is much too thick. Try having it almost twice thiner and a bit taller. It should rise clearly above the sail, I think.

And on a purely technical aspect : can you capture the model without having the end vertices appearing stressed bold that way ? The classic display in Sketchup seems clearer to me.

[Josh]

Hi Josh! Thanks for your work on the boat! I find the hull too V-shaped looking from the side. You should inspire yourself more from the source photo, don't you think ? I like your sail, and on the contrary I think the mast is much too thick. Try having it almost twice thiner and a bit taller. It should rise clearly above the sail, I think.

And on a purely technical aspect : can you capture the model without having the end vertices appearing stressed bold that way ? The classic display in Sketchup seems clearer to me.

1. I agree on the mast, It was way to big! I must be going blind
   
2. Of the weird vertices display, I'm not sure why it's doing that; I have setting at default.
   
3. On the hull shape, that took a really long time to do but I can add another row of ploys with a higher angle on top of the current hull if you think it's really necessary.
   
4. (edit) And about the sources all of them depict large boats or small boats without sails except one. So I'm going on the modern dhow for sail rig and my own interpretation for the hull.
   

I've made a lot of changes, here are the new pictures:

(Suggestions, Suggestions, Suggestions!)

Edited November 7, 2012 by Josh

[Enrique]

@Josh

The hull needs thickness. Also keep in mind that the engine doesn't render backside normals. Therefore, things like the sail should have another set of faces with their normals flipped. try to add it a rope or a crate

@LordGood

Great design, as always

Can't wait to see it detailed

[lilstewie]

My brains are a heap of scrambled eggs, I've literally been sitting here modelling for the past two days

need sleep

must.... model.... one more

I'll refine everything laterr

One thing I hope you don't change about this is the Torana(gateway).

[Josh]

@Josh

The hull needs thickness. Also keep in mind that the engine doesn't render backside normals. Therefore, things like the sail should have another set of faces with their normals flipped. try to add it a rope or a crate

@LordGood

Great design, as always

Can't wait to see it detailed

*facepalm* I forgot about the normals, I'll try to fix that. Thanks for the input!

[Josh]

Quick update, I've added thickness to the hull. I will be trying to add everything else suggested over the next few days.

Feel free to comment on the hull.

[Ludo38]

Quick update, I've added thickness to the hull. I will be trying to add everything else suggested over the next few days.

Feel free to comment on the hull.

Josh, if I remember well, you can change the appearance of the edges and vertices in the "Styles" section. Try there.

About the hull : the hull you made doesn't have a realistic profile. It's a kind of V and seem very unstable. Please check how boats are designed, you will see that this shape doesn't work (as far I know). I think you shoulds restart the whole hull.

[LordGood]

Quick update, I've added thickness to the hull. I will be trying to add everything else suggested over the next few days.

Feel free to comment on the hull.

you could extrude that top face and flatten the whole hull with the scale tool, the poly count might be a little dense, but it could be a little more realistic, and you might not have to completely start over

Just a thought, but I'd lighten the polygon count as much as possible

[Josh]

Josh, if I remember well, you can change the appearance of the edges and vertices in the "Styles" section. Try there.

About the hull : the hull you made doesn't have a realistic profile. It's a kind of V and seem very unstable. Please check how boats are designed, you will see that this shape doesn't work (as far I know). I think you shoulds restart the whole hull.

I have an idea what profile sailboats need, I have been doing competitive sailboat racing twice a week in the spring and fall for two and a half years.

And I have to argue about the hull. From what I can find historically the hulls were quite shallow

(As seen here and here as quick historical examples here for an example from age of empires)

Besides all the above I will add another layer on top of the current hull. I will be back with that shortly.

(Sorry if I sound angry)

[Josh]

you could extrude that top face and flatten the whole hull with the scale tool, the poly count might be a little dense, but it could be a little more realistic, and you might not have to completely start over

Just a thought, but I'd lighten the polygon count as much as possible

Sorry, I didn't see your post before I posted my above post. What your saying is exactly what I was thinking.

And on polys I plan on building a high poly model than de-polying to make it more efficant (right now my face count is 341!)

Edited November 8, 2012 by Josh