Infiltration, espionage, sabotage, bribery and countermeasures

[oddchild]

Maybe it would be nice if like in AOE3 where the spies (or hidden units) could be discovered by heroes. in addition to the other ideas that already have been mentioned

[Lion.Kanzen]

Maybe it would be nice if like in AOE3 where the spies (or hidden units) could be discovered by heroes. in addition to the other ideas that already have been mentioned

i didnt know that. very good idea. i like may be add Heroes and Champion units.

[oshron]

i'd say make spies invisible (cloaked, hidden, etc.) to all units and buildings except for a select few of each, namely:

• Heroes: these will be uncommon enough to warrant them being used to spot enemy spies
  
• Champion units: (maybe) because they will also be less-common than citizen soldiers and non-combat units
  
• Outposts: a standing tower in the wilderness will be suspicious of anything that doesn't look familiar, so they'd likely single out a passing spy
  
• Fortresses: forts would be on high-alert and single out anyone approaching them that shouldn't be
  
• other spies: naturally, spies would be trained to spot other spies
  

[Lion.Kanzen]

i'd say make spies invisible (cloaked, hidden, etc.) to all units and buildings except for a select few of each, namely:

• Heroes: these will be uncommon enough to warrant them being used to spot enemy spies
  
• Champion units: (maybe) because they will also be less-common than citizen soldiers and non-combat units
  
• Outposts: a standing tower in the wilderness will be suspicious of anything that doesn't look familiar, so they'd likely single out a passing spy
  
• Fortresses: forts would be on high-alert and single out anyone approaching them that shouldn't be
  
• other spies: naturally, spies would be trained to spot other spies
  

good Brainstorming

[oddchild]

What about town centres?

i'd say make spies invisible (cloaked, hidden, etc.) to all units and buildings except for a select few of each, namely:

• Heroes: these will be uncommon enough to warrant them being used to spot enemy spies
  
• Champion units: (maybe) because they will also be less-common than citizen soldiers and non-combat units
  
• Outposts: a standing tower in the wilderness will be suspicious of anything that doesn't look familiar, so they'd likely single out a passing spy
  
• Fortresses: forts would be on high-alert and single out anyone approaching them that shouldn't be
  
• other spies: naturally, spies would be trained to spot other spies
  

What about town centres?

[Pedro Falcão]

I'd normally agree with you, oshron, but i've already thought of this and i'm counting with the possibility of the player abusing of these detectors. For heroes, it's ok, they are unique. But champion units are less common early, and then the player could just have 10 of them patrolling the base streets to prevent any spies and have a control group set on them to fastly get them to counter any massive attack as needed. About Outposts i'd agree, also, but still the player can intentionally build outposts next to base entrances so that any spies are killed on spot. For fortresses, it's the same, though i bet the team will make restrictions for how close to other fortresses/civ centres one can build a fortress.

In Starcraft 2, for example, the Protoss race has only 2 kinds of detectors: The Photon Cannons (their guard towers) and the Observers (an invisible flying unit meant only to spy). Spamming any of these is a dumb thing to do because you'll be wasting resources your opponent will not, and yet, not having any is as dumb as spamming, cause your opponent could take advantage of that and get invisible units to destroy your whole resource production and then your army (yes, SC2's emphasis is on controlling resource spots). But this system can't be applied to 0 A.D. for 3 reasons:

1 - Buildings are harder, and thus slower, to destroy, making the tactic of "destroy the detector for the spy to come in" a bit of a fail, it would only drive the enemy's attention to that spot(while in SC2, when the enemy sees it, the spy is already in and will hardly be spotted).

2 - Resources aren't as precious here as they are in SC2, where even buildings have an optimized order of construction to save time/resources, thus it wouldn't matter much if you spam outposts to detect spies.

3 - In SC2, information is the key to winning, you must always send spies to scout and see what you'll need to build/train next. The longer your enemy stays hidden, the greater his chances of winning. This is not true, at least not yet, for 0 A.D., where the size of the army and the positioning of the fight are more important to win.

[oshron]

well there's nothing to say that spies would have a greater line of sight than an outpost, and that's all they'd need, really point out to their allies where the outpost is, have a siege engine destroy it from afar, and then the spy can advance further ahead

retrospectively, i agree about the champion units as detectors, that would give too many detectors to the player

incidentally, i'd say that spies should be limited to one per player at a time, three at most if one simply seems like too few

[Pedro Falcão]

Maybe if the spy had an ability to temporarily hide even from outposts, or if outposts had a detection range smaller than the LoS...

[Lion.Kanzen]

Maybe if the spy had an ability to temporarily hide even from outposts, or if outposts had a detection range smaller than the LoS...

a timed a skill for move between Outpost. each level spy the time its long for doing this.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I'd normally agree with you, oshron, but i've already thought of this and i'm counting with the possibility of the player abusing of these detectors. For heroes, it's ok, they are unique. But champion units are less common early, and then the player could just have 10 of them patrolling the base streets to prevent any spies and have a control group set on them to fastly get them to counter any massive attack as needed. About Outposts i'd agree, also, but still the player can intentionally build outposts next to base entrances so that any spies are killed on spot. For fortresses, it's the same, though i bet the team will make restrictions for how close to other fortresses/civ centres one can build a fortress.

In Starcraft 2, for example, the Protoss race has only 2 kinds of detectors: The Photon Cannons (their guard towers) and the Observers (an invisible flying unit meant only to spy). Spamming any of these is a dumb thing to do because you'll be wasting resources your opponent will not, and yet, not having any is as dumb as spamming, cause your opponent could take advantage of that and get invisible units to destroy your whole resource production and then your army (yes, SC2's emphasis is on controlling resource spots). But this system can't be applied to 0 A.D. for 3 reasons:

1 - Buildings are harder, and thus slower, to destroy, making the tactic of "destroy the detector for the spy to come in" a bit of a fail, it would only drive the enemy's attention to that spot(while in SC2, when the enemy sees it, the spy is already in and will hardly be spotted).

2 - Resources aren't as precious here as they are in SC2, where even buildings have an optimized order of construction to save time/resources, thus it wouldn't matter much if you spam outposts to detect spies.

3 - In SC2, information is the key to winning, you must always send spies to scout and see what you'll need to build/train next. The longer your enemy stays hidden, the greater his chances of winning. This is not true, at least not yet, for 0 A.D., where the size of the army and the positioning of the fight are more important to win.

• Sabotage in a building like a ancient Black ops Mission ,
  
• Steal intelligence(Technologies) for your faction.
  

[oshron]

i'd say it would be better to just allow them to sabotage production buildings like in Empire Earth 2; the building is surrounded by a visual aura indicating that it's been sabotaged and is unable to produce units or research technologies for a minute or two (perhaps it could be signified by clouds of smoke, implying that it was set on fire from the inside by the spy, or alternatively that some kind of smoke bomb was thrown down). it doesn't hurt the building, just creates chaos within, preventing it from doing anything while the staff try to restore order. sabotage could perhaps cost metal (eg, you're paying the spy extra to undertake such a risky action). this would add further strategic value to the spy rather than just making them an invisible scout

that is, i'd recommend just sabotage on the assumption that spies would be implemented in Part 1. if they're introduced in Part 2 (and retroactively given to the original civs as well as new ones), then they should be given additional powers such as:

• infiltration (allowing the spy to stay hidden indefinitely inside a building, or even just hunkering down in one spot, thus drawing less attention to himself; visually, he would either disappear into the building or sit down on the ground and use different idle animations, maybe fiddling with a musical instrument or eating some bread)
  
• poison (similar to sabotage, the spy poisons the water source in a civic building, hurting enemy units in the area around it and slowing down the rate at which resources are used)
  

though again, if spies are given such powers, this should be balanced by them being VERY expensive and the player only being allowed to have one of them at a time

[oddchild]

As far as sabatage goes.. gave me an idea.. .

what about making a unit that can only be made once. If you can manage to get it to the enemy civic centre, it would poison the food supply and cost the enemy player 500 food. (go into negative if needed). It could be rotten meat or diseased, or whatnot.

[Pedro Falcão]

I'm sorry, but i don't see this poisoning/sabotaging as a funny thing. It would be an interesting thing to test, but i think it'd add a whole new level of micro-managing and distractions for the player and coming back when your army is already down isn't a funny thing, imo.

[Mythos_Ruler]

fyi (in English), "funny" is something that makes you laugh.

[Pedro Falcão]

fyi (in English), "funny" is something that makes you laugh.

Thanks, Michael.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I'm sorry, but i don't see this poisoning/sabotaging as a funny thing. It would be an interesting thing to test, but i think it'd add a whole new level of micro-managing and distractions for the player and coming back when your army is already down isn't a funny thing, imo.

would be a Prank, you need do someything and: upss... what happes... Why i Train my UNits.. OMG im been sabotaged T-T.

or the gate don't works and your city its rush because a Unit (Special Commando) Saboating the gates. i think that issue of Gates can be protecte if you put a Outpost near or Elite, guarding gates, maybe some stances can be used to catch out the Special Unit.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I'd probably just keep the list of "detector" units to other spies and maybe heroes.

[Nolanjoker]

There were arcani, at least groups named such. Arcanus means 'hidden ones' or 'secret ones' in Latin, and the arcani themselves were spies and scouts of the empire. A shadow organization, they were never mentioned but once in ancient texts- and that in Britannia. They were accused of treason by allowing the barbarians- whom they knew were gathering for an attack- to do so without giving word to the garrisons. After the barbarians were repelled and Britannia set in order by Theodosius, the arcani there were disbanded in disgrace. Other groups may have existed, but being hidden scouts and spies, never mentioned in ancient texts. It seems rather odd that spies and scouts of this nature were used only in one province, and not throughout the border regions, thus leaving one open to suggestions that other units did exist, but being secret, were never mentioned because they performed their tasks properly.

[KayEhn]

Indeed, there were spies present in the later ages, during the Mongol Expansion under Ghengis Khan. They were an arabic group based out of the mountains-the Mongols had various run-ins with them.