Iberian Navy

[Argantonius]

Well, I have to say, if the reason the Iberians don't have warships is because it wouldn't be historically accurate then giving them equally historically inaccurate fireships as an alternative doesn't make much sense, right?

I agree with those that suggested giving Iberian buildings an extra attack versus ships, and making trade ships able to fire arrows when garrisoned by ranged units (not just for Iberians, but all civilizations - and not fishing ships, that would be silly). These "armed merchants" would be the crappiest of the crappiest of "warships" but they could help you buy time while you build a proper fleet or if you are momentarily out of gold and all your warships have been sunk.

And lo, if the player is stup... I mean brave enough to choose Iberians and an islands map, then he could still win by spawning merchants and slingers/javelineers, and fortifying every little island with resources or strategic value. It would be slow and expensive but possible nonetheless.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Argantonius

[hhyloc]

We could have a research that adds a fire arrow attack to merchant ships like that of ranged infantry, or just garrison ranged infantries with fire attack in the ship. Maybe both.

[L'ethu]

Instead of building a rag-tag war ship from the scratch, why don't just gave the civilian ships (fishing ship, merchant ship) an option to convert themselves into war ships or fire ships in case an Iberian player needs to compete in the high seas.

[Pedro Falcão]

Instead of building a rag-tag war ship from the scratch, why don't just gave the civilian ships (fishing ship, merchant ship) an option to convert themselves into war ships or fire ships in case an Iberian player needs to compete in the high seas.

Because they didn't have properly ships to war. They won't compete at high seas because of their lack of naval warships, Iberians aren't fit for naval battles, but they can board into great warships and kidnap the ship to use against their attackers, they just can't build them. The iberians also have stronger buildings (though not yet), so their buildings will stand a little more while their soldiers board into the waterborne (if it is right to call ships like this) attacker.

[L'ethu]

My intention was to give the Iberians a chance to defend the coast by granting them an option to convert civilian vessels into partisan navy against four other civilization who have war vessels. I know they have no chance to wage a high seas battle but perhaps by applying such ability the Iberians may have the option cripple or eliminate an enemy in the early period of the game.

I was thinking about if the Iberian warriors could hijack a war vessel, how to hijack a ship when a war ship was heavily guarded by marines and sailors? How do you bring the warriors to the intended target and how do you execute your plan against a huge naval fleet? Have you ever consider the percentage of success and the consequences of a failed hijack attempt? This is not Command and Conquer : Generals or Zero Hour where you can assign one hijacker to capture a tank or vehicle (in reality some of these actions was quite impossible). That's why i suggest that an option of converting Iberian civilian vessel in to partisan ship as a response against other five civilization who have a proper navy.

Edited February 26, 2012 by L'ethu

[Pedro Falcão]

I was thinking about if the Iberian warriors could hijack a war vessel, how to hijack a ship when a war ship was heavily guarded by marines and sailors? How do you bring the warriors to the intended target and how do you execute your plan against a huge naval fleet? Have you ever consider the percentage of success and the consequences of a failed hijack attempt? This is not Command and Conquer : Generals or Zero Hour where you can assign one hijacker to capture a tank or vehicle (in reality some of these actions was quite impossible). That's why i suggest that an option of converting Iberian civilian vessel in to partisan ship as a response against other five civilization who have a proper navy.

But remember that the iberians will use light ships against those heavy war vessels. Remember light ships are quite faster and that the war vessels can't fire catapults at a ship that's too close and much less one tied to it. Remember also that, although not always successful, hijacking ships a profitable practice. The romans even figured out how to build a galley (a ship stronger than the triremes) by hijacking a cathaginian galley.

[L'ethu]

Maybe the game should provide neutral coastal colonies which provide mercenary warship for players who lacks navy like Warcraft III: Frozen Throne where player could hire mercenary warship on the map.

[Pedro Falcão]

Maybe the game should provide neutral coastal colonies which provide mercenary warship for players who lacks navy like Warcraft III: Frozen Throne where player could hire mercenary warship on the map.

That's a good idea, but depends on the map. Not saying it to not be implemented, though, just to watch out for real world iberian maps, it would be strange to see ship mercenaries in iberian lands...

Edited February 28, 2012 by Pedro Falcão

[L'ethu]

Since these are the improvements that help those civilization who have no navy (Huns, Iberians) and historically possible, why not?

Implement on random map is possible but historical map is not possible for me and my primary concern was about random map not historical map.

Well if there's a demand for mercenary galleys, why don't make all naval random map with neutral (Gaia) coastal colonies? 

Edited February 28, 2012 by L'ethu

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

This is my say. The Iberians should be able to merely stock up their merchant vessels and such with soldiers. As their javelin throwers would be able to hurl flaming spears, enemy ships actually could be destroyed. The thing that should be understood though, is the kind of strategy the Iberians would be made for. As they have only a bad navy in the last few ages, they need to rush their opponents on a sea map. Likewise, instead of going to the unnecessary trouble of making weaker cultures, it could be possible to perhaps merely make trade agreements with your rivals for units.

[L'ethu]

 Sounds logical to me and possible by common sense, but will it clash with historical accuracy?  I don't know. Perhaps we should leave it to the team or if someone could find some evidence about the Iberian naval combat documents then it could be helpful. 

Edited February 28, 2012 by L'ethu

[Shogun 144]

My 2 cents:

To my knowledge there is just a lot we do not know about the Iberians and naval warfare. Thorfinn's suggestion makes sense. Also, we could add to the Iberians some Celtic warships, maybe one unit or two, acting as mercenaries in the Iberian player's service or what not. But I don't know if it would be supportable. Something to consider, nevertheless.

[Cassador_Chris]

I just had an idea. This quote come from Carthage Must Be Destroyed by Richard Miles.

"Marine archaeologists have found the remains of several Carthaginian ships dating to this period, of which one in particular, found lying on the seabed just off Marsala on the west coast of Sicily, has excited much interest. It was a small military craft in use sometime around the mid third century BC. On close inspection, archaeologists were amazed to discover that each piece of the boat was carefully marked with a letter which ensured that the complex design could be easily and swiftly assembled. The Marsala wreck had, in effect, been a flat-pack warship."

The idea would be that the Iberians could purchase these flat-pack warships (presumably from Carthage) like one might call crates from their home city in AOEIII, and then assemble them on any shoreline quickly. It would certainly give the Iberians an unique navel advantage. Not only would they be able to launch these small craft from anywhere, but they could build up a whole fleet without the enemy being able to attack it or even know about it, and then launch it into action at a moment's notice to defend your coast against assault.

EDIT:

Another (unrelated) idea I had was to create random pirate/privateer strongholds on navel maps. Like a combination between the natives of AOEIII and the pirates of Sins of a Solar Empire, these strongholds could be brought over to your side in return for offering them a lump sum. They would then spawn ships for free that the player could directly control. These ships would focus on speed and on capturing or looting enemy ships. A player would only lose the free spawns of warships if another player offered a greater sum to the stronghold. On navel maps, it could be an option that Iberians might pursue. Alternatively, one could just give them access to training a pirating vessel, which would also work.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Cassador_Chris

[oshron]

personally, i think it would be easier to make just a special "pirate stronghold" building (functionally identical to a dock) that you can either destroy or capture and use for yourself. the pirate stronghold would be able to build just one type of multipurpose "pirate ship" that any civ could train and which would look different depending on which civ builds it (they could/should probably resemble a regular ship of that civ but with black sails)

[Pedro Falcão]

Awesome ideas, Chris and L'ethu, but what about the team? Are there any plans to change this void at the iberian gameplay? Will the iberians really be this "unbalanced"? Or the team is reserving these thinkings to a later stage of the game?

[Mythos_Ruler]

personally, i think it would be easier to make just a special "pirate stronghold" building (functionally identical to a dock) that you can either destroy or capture and use for yourself. the pirate stronghold would be able to build just one type of multipurpose "pirate ship" that any civ could train and which would look different depending on which civ builds it (they could/should probably resemble a regular ship of that civ but with black sails)

I don't think that would be particularly "easier" than any other way. The "easiest" way to go would be to stick with the fire ships Pureon and I made, or to just give them a slightly nerfed version of the Celtic Warship.

[Cassador_Chris]

I don't think that would be particularly "easier" than any other way. The "easiest" way to go would be to stick with the fire ships Pureon and I made, or to just give them a slightly nerfed version of the Celtic Warship.

I'm not against the fire ship route. Fire ships are primarily defensive anyway, so they'd fit the Iberians in that sense. Just tossing more ideas into the hat, I suppose!

[oshron]

i had meant easier as opposed to designing an entirely new aspect of gameplay (eg, natives a la AOE3) like i said, i still support giving them a fireship, though perhaps the ship could be relegated to being a late-game unit that the iberians need to research a special tech for

[Pureon]

though perhaps the ship could be relegated to being a late-game unit that the iberians need to research a special tech for

The merchant ship's garrison defense could potentially also be a tech upgrade.

[Pedro Falcão]

And what about hijacking ships? Any plans for this feature? It is an exciting feature. I'd like to know about other aspects of naval combat, too: The basic strategy for triremes (when engaging combat by one side of the opponent) was to plunge into the enemy ship with their bronze frontal tip, raid the ship, detach and let it sink due to the hole on its hull; I'd be really excited to see something like this in 0 A.D., even though i think it would make players feel ships too fragile and not use them.

[feneur]

And what about hijacking ships? Any plans for this feature? It is an exciting feature. I'd like to know about other aspects of naval combat, too: The basic strategy for triremes (when engaging combat by one side of the opponent) was to plunge into the enemy ship with their bronze frontal tip, raid the ship, detach and let it sink due to the hole on its hull; I'd be really excited to see something like this in 0 A.D., even though i think it would make players feel ships too fragile and not use them.

Ramming is planned for part 1, boarding/capturing ships is postponed for now, perhaps in part 2.

[L'ethu]

personally, i think it would be easier to make just a special "pirate stronghold" building (functionally identical to a dock) that you can either destroy or capture and use for yourself. the pirate stronghold would be able to build just one type of multipurpose "pirate ship" that any civ could train and which would look different depending on which civ builds it (they could/should probably resemble a regular ship of that civ but with black sails)

Good idea.

[hhyloc]

An option to hire mercenary ships is nice, although I think we should give this option to the Iberian only. Because a Pirate Stronghold will work for any sides which captured it, so other factions - with its superior naval ships, can rush in and quickly overpower the Iberian ships and capture the Stronghold, fortified it with many ships, and thus prevent the Iberian from re-capture it and cripple them effectively in any future naval battles.

[oshron]

An option to hire mercenary ships is nice, although I think we should give this option to the Iberian only. Because a Pirate Stronghold will work for any sides which captured it, so other factions - with its superior naval ships, can rush in and quickly overpower the Iberian ships and capture the Stronghold, fortified it with many ships, and thus prevent the Iberian from re-capture it and cripple them effectively in any future naval battles.

hypothetically, though, the iberians could rush the beach and build up from the center of the island, attacking the ships with ranged units and/or buildings. the idea i have with a pirate stronghold is simply that it would have a unit that any civ could train, whereas with a regular dock the iberians would still (in theory) be limited to their own ships

this brings up two thoughts, though:

1. would the iberians and other civilizations be able to train foreign units from captured buildings? for example, would the persians be able to train hoplites from a captured greek barracks? because if thats the case then that could simplify everything: the iberians could just capture an enemy dock and train foreign ships there
   
2. will you be able to auto-kill units and/or buildings in 0ad, like in AOE? cuz that would be a total @#$% move if the holding player deleted the pirate stronghold (or any other building) just before an enemy player successfully captured it. or will buildings in the process of being captured be incapable of deletion?
   

Edited March 1, 2012 by oshron

[hhyloc]

1. would the iberians and other civilizations be able to train foreign units from captured buildings? for example, would the persians be able to train hoplites from a captured greek barracks? because if thats the case then that could simplify everything: the iberians could just capture an enemy dock and train foreign ships there
2. will you be able to auto-kill units and/or buildings in 0ad, like in AOE? cuz that would be a total @#$% move if the holding player deleted the pirate stronghold (or any other building) just before an enemy player successfully captured it. or will buildings in the process of being captured be incapable of deletion?

1. IIRC, it's planned to have the captured building able to train your own units only, at least by default until the player research a technology. So even if the Iberians player managed to capture an enemy's dock, he will only able to train his faction ships only.

2. I think for neutral buildings like the Pirate Stronghold, we should make it undestroyable by any player, like the merc buldings in Warcraft III.