add hebrews

[jaimele]

why not add the hebrews? they were around in 0ad and an extremely formidable force for the romans. they could be good with guerilla warfare

[tinoesroho]

Sorry to laugh, but at best, they offered resistance comparable to that of the germanic tribes. At worst, they only managed to get an entire town torched. They'd be a good addition to a "tribal warfare" expansion pack, but since they didn't cover much land in their peak - far less than say, the hellenic peoples - they don't really stand a chance of being added in either part 1 or part 2.

Then again, they did managed to send the occupying greek forces scurrying for cover...

[Jeru]

Would make for an excellent mod.

I once wrote a campaign idea for the Jewish revolt against Rome.

[gudo]

I once wrote a campaign idea for the Jewish revolt against Rome.

Once the game goes gold, somebody will probably do it. Could be pretty good too, there's always something about playing the underdog

Jaimele - I wouldn't hold your breath for it Hebrews to be included as a civ in the vanilla game. Maybe a few Atlas only units and buildings, but probably not a whole, multiplayer playable civ. The main problem with including them is probably the size of their holdings. Consider the size of the Roman Empire or the size of the Achaemenid Empire. To be sure, the Hebrews had (and still make) a huge and lasting impact on global affairs. But at the time, they were just another ethnic group.

[Alpha of the Eagles]

Sorry to laugh, but at best, they offered resistance comparable to that of the germanic tribes.

Do not laught at the power of fanatics. They were extremely ferocius in combat, defeating both Romans and Seleucid Greeks. However, internal fighting while at war with the Romans proved to be one of their poorer ideas.

I shiver at the thought of hordes of Zealots.

[gudo]

However, internal fighting while at war with the Romans proved to be one of their poorer ideas.

War with the Romans was the poor idea, the internal fighting just made their bad position worse. When you consider not just the size of force, but also the training and ability each belligerent was able to bring to the fray; it's no wonder each of the wars proved disastrous for the Hebrews.

I shiver at the thought of hordes of Zealots.

Fanaticism improves neither your logistics, nor strategy. Sure, a small portion of your ability to fight is your will, but when all sides are willing, it's the tangible that matters. Do you have more troops than your opponent? (No.) Do you have better weapons than your opponent? (No.) Do you have better technology? (No.) Better freedom of movement? Better leadership? When you consider it like this, the question "Do the Hebrews have a chance?" becomes "How badly will they loose?"

[Jeru]

Fun fact: Jews commemorate the devastation of Jerusalem every year on the 9th day of the month of Av. Traditionally it is a fast day, i.e. no eating out of respect and sorrow.

The movie theaters, restaurants etc. in Israel are all closed that day, and on public TV they usually put on all sorts of documentaries about Jewish peoplehood, raising questions about unity vs. sectarianism, stratification etc. and generally discussing if we have learned anything from the in-fighting and destruction two millenia ago.

[jaimele]

yeah... at least a few hebrew buildings and units thrown in there in one of the expansion packs would be great. i love 0ad for featuring celts, carthagenians, and iberians.. theres so many strategy games with the greco-roman factions that it just feels so default when playing. hebrews, as well as the mentioned armenians would be a great idea. also cant wait to play the germanic tribes!

[Mythos_Ruler]

I could see including into the game as an "Easter Egg" object the Solomon/Herod Temple in Jerusalem that was destroyed by the Romans:

It just depends on what we have time to include. I'd like to at least get the 7 Wonders of the World included, then add things like the Temple shown here and the Colosseum in Rome. The Ishtar Gates of Babylon will definitely be included.

[jaimele]

love that idea!

I could see including into the game as an "Easter Egg" object the Solomon/Herod Temple in Jerusalem that was destroyed by the Romans:

It just depends on what we have time to include. I'd like to at least get the 7 Wonders of the World included, then add things like the Temple shown here and the Colosseum in Rome. The Ishtar Gates of Babylon will definitely be included.

[Jeru]

Awesome idea. I can see myself in a year or two meticulously simulating Second Temple-era Jerusalem in Atlas.

I actually have a drawing of that building in my room btw.

[Jeru]

By the way, the Talmud says that one who has not seen the Second Temple from the time of Herod, has never seen a magnificent building (Source).

[Arthur_D]

Well, the second and the first temple were not at all the same, so I guess deciding on which one to be modeled would be a good idea.

[oshron]

thanks for giving me an idea for a hebrew wonder, mythosruler!

[kephra]

Moin,

I like the hebrews, even if there are more important armies to finish first (Persian, Rome, Germans, Indians, Mongols, Chinese, ...)

The problem that they have lots of badly equipped, highly motivated troops. Naked fanatic men with swords.

So once 0ad implements fanatics, who do not obey a stand order, and always attack, the hebrew would come handy as a test.

Civ center should offer:

Light infantry with swords.

Benjaminites: Light infantry with stone slings.

Light cavalry with javelin.

Taktikum should give in addition:

Fanatic Swordsmen

Fanatic Javelinmen

Hebrews have historically not been known for siege engines, if we dont count the Ark of the Covenant and the trumps of Jericho. But the Benjaminites had been hired as mercenaries in several battles, to bombard walls with stones, and even Hippodamos mentioned them, when talking about the strength of walls and towers. So the stones slings should double for sieges.

One question is, if they had a good navy. The sea people and Hyksos had both been semitic tribes, and known for sea worthy vessels. Also Phoenician and Carthago had been semitic, but those had been total different civilsations in their own right. Palestine is close to the coast, so they should at least have fishing boats, and merchants vessels.

So on the plus side for a hebrew army would be: Fanatics and Benjaminites, while the bad side are a lack in real siege engines, the lack of momentum troops (long spear and shield), and the lack of a real navy. Tactics would be to weaken the enemy with massive stone showers, and to crush them with fantatics in a shock of impact.

ciao,Kephra

[jaimele]

this is a great dea. and maybe have a hero slinger named.... david!

[Shield Bearer]

I wouldn't mind modelling the Second Temple when I have the time

[Jeru]

By the way,

The problem that they have lots of badly equipped, highly motivated troops. Naked fanatic men with swords.

I doubt they were naked. Nakedness, as in the gymnasium, was considered a foreign, Greek influence.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Also, David was a king. I do not think that he would require such things. Either way, these are my thoughts. It might be better to do the first temple as it was destroyed only around 576 B.C. making it fit a lot better with the time frame of the first part. I can see the second temple much more functional in part two. As for units, the Israelites were not the sorts who mainly used guerilla warfare unless you are speaking of the Maccabees and the Zealots. The Israelite's backbone in their army was in infantry, consisting of swordsmen, and spearmen. Slingers were used but not as frequently. Javelin throwers are not mentioned very much excepting with Joshua and the destruction of Ai. Later on though, the Israelites did use chariots and archers in battle.

[kephra]

Moin,

I doubt they were naked. Nakedness, as in the gymnasium, was considered a foreign, Greek influence.

*oups* sorry - Naked in terms of a wargamer means that they wear no armour.

ciao,Michael

[Cassador_Chris]

I think a Second Temple model would be pretty cool. Though the Ancient Jews stylistically would be too close to the Carthaginians to justify having their own civilization in 0AD. Likewise, though, they'd be an easy civilization to add as a mod, as the modder would just have to grab Carthaginian and some Greek/Roman buildings and perhaps retexture some of those to bring a more coherent and unique design to the civilization and...bravo! An Ancient Israel/Judah build set.