Walls Accessible To Units

[Spartan]

Hi i was wondering if the developers of O A.D. are going to make walls accessible to units.

So the units can walk along the wall and protect the city from invaders

& is it possible to make the player of the game choose what map they want and what faction's they want to play with on that map. plus allow the player to change what teams they are on.

because that will be awesome

Thanks Spartan

[tribalbeat]

Yes but it probably won't be for a long time.

[Kimball]

Hi i was wondering if the developers of O A.D. are going to make walls accessible to units.

So the units can walk along the wall and protect the city from invaders

Not necessarily. This topic has been discussed on and off since 0 A.D. was being conceptualized, and usually we find that the practicality of the units being able to man the walls does not justify the effort it would take to implement this feature. Another subject that falls into this debate is bridges that are both passable by land units while still allowing boats to pass underneath.

& is it possible to make the player of the game choose what map they want and what faction's they want to play with on that map. plus allow the player to change what teams they are on.

because that will be awesome

Yes, this will 100% possible once random maps are implemented.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Another subject that falls into this debate is bridges that are both passable by land units while still allowing boats to pass underneath.

Another strike against this is that there were rarely, if any, bridges in ancient times that did this. Sure, small boats could pass underneath, but ships? Nah.

[Sebovzeoueb]

In Rise and Fall it is really great to have hordes of archers on your walls raining down arrows on the enemy. I really hope this feature does get implemented at some point. What are the points against having units on walls?

[Alpha of the Eagles]

I think the argument is if there's gonna be melee units and siege tower battles on walls. Garrisoning archers in walls so they can fire will probably be implemented (if my memory serves me right, this was sort of semi-decided in an earlier thread).

[WhiteTreePaladin]

"What are the points against having units on walls?"

Lots of work mainly. We'd rather put that effort toward other things. It would be a nice feature, but probably would require a fully 3D coordinate system. Our current game is really 2D with 3D graphics.

[feneur]

Yes, this will 100% possible once random maps are implemented.

Random maps are implemented (and all those things are possible) There are only a few random map scripts yet though, but that should hopefully change in the future

[Kimball]

Random maps are implemented (and all those things are possible) There are only a few random map scripts yet though, but that should hopefully change in the future

Yeah, by implemented I meant once we have more of them and the GUI supports choosing a faction.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Everyone's in luck! The GUI already supports choosing factions for Random maps on the game setup screen! You cannot, however, choose your faction for Custom Scenarios, since they are custom scenarios. Although, it would be cool to be able to allow the choosing of a faction for custom scenarios. Perhaps enable it in the Atlas UI somehow where you can dictate the faction for each player (add "user optional" and "random" choices for the map designer?).

[satchitb]

It would probably be very easy to protect archers, then. Just plonk one square of wall, and put your archer in it. It would be up really fast, and pesky cavalry would die before being able to knock it down.

[Kimball]

It would probably be very easy to protect archers, then. Just plonk one square of wall, and put your archer in it. It would be up really fast, and pesky cavalry would die before being able to knock it down.

I hate to ruin all the fun here, but that is the sort of exploitation that we'd like to prevent. We'd rather you build an outpost for that sort of situation, and the game design should encourage you to do so.

[Rasunadon]

Having units on walls would be a nice feature, but probably would require a fully 3D coordinate system. Our current game is really 2D with 3D graphics. (shorted)

And how about Celtic walls and its rampart?

[chaosislife]

I'm pretty sure there's nothing stopping you from putting an archer just on the other side of a wall, switching his stance to stand still and having him fire at the enemy from there, same effect, less needed work. Unless the unit AI gets jiggered with so archers won't just shoot past an obstruction anyhow. That would be tricky to do tho since you'd have to specifically name what obstructions they can't shoot past so they could still shoot past other units in battle instead of requiring a clear line of sight to the enemy. Otherwise it would screw up later mods. I suppose you could set it up not to be able to shoot past buildings....but the small wooden and stone fences would count as buildings and it wouldn't make much sense if they couldn't shoot past something they could see over in real life. Just seems like alot of work for little purpose.

[chess007_phoenix_clan]

"I hate to ruin all the fun here, but that is the sort of exploitation that we'd like to prevent."

Makes sense to prevent it. If it was implemented you could go just outside an enemy city, build a few wall sections, fill them with archers, (entirely unrealistic) then attack the enemy and lead them out to your "death star".

However, it does make sense for the archers to be able to shoot over small fences. They could also probably shoot over walls (realistically) at a sharp angle, but the shots wouldn't be very accurate. Perhaps there could be an attack ground order to make units attack a specific spot whether or not anything is there. That is great for controlling small choke-points.

Edited June 24, 2011 by chess007_phoenix_clan

[Sebovzeoueb]

I think that walls should take a really long time to build, that way the problem of wall spamming is somewhat reduced, and it is very unrealistic the way one worker can just stick a wall up in a couple of seconds as if it were an Ikea flatpack or something. Massive stone walls take a long time and a lot of resources, and this doesn't seem to be well reflected in RTS games.

Also, when we have territories, you won't be able to build a wall near the enemy, I guess.

I think also walls should only be accessible from towers, which in turn should be even more time consuming and costly than the walls. At the moment it is way too quick and easy to build a stone tower.

For me, Rise and Fall has the best walls

This picture sums up everything a wall should be. Namely massive and with loads of troops fighting on it. It also raises the question: if you don't have troops on walls, what is the function of the siege tower (assuming there might well be one)?

[Kimball]

I think that walls should take a really long time to build, that way the problem of wall spamming is somewhat reduced, and it is very unrealistic the way one worker can just stick a wall up in a couple of seconds as if it were an Ikea flatpack or something. Massive stone walls take a long time and a lot of resources, and this doesn't seem to be well reflected in RTS games.

Well, this is in part adjusted after play testing. When the walls are reasonably priced for the amount of effort it would take to build them in real life, players are discouraged from using them, opting for units as a means of defense instead (since they're much cheaper).

This picture sums up everything a wall should be. Namely massive and with loads of troops fighting on it. It also raises the question: if you don't have troops on walls, what is the function of the siege tower (assuming there might well be one)?

You raise a decent point here, but the result would be stripping out any sort of siege tower rather than having units on the walls. As we've said before, we've omitted it from the game design because it's far too much effort for little reward. There are many better uses of our programmers' time.

[Mythos_Ruler]

We've talked about walls a billion times. Here was my post on the subject:

Click-Drag

So, there is the traditional click-drag way, seen in games such as Age of Kings and Age of Mythology.

I think what will need to happen with this method is that the wall needs a short, medium, and long segment, which switches out depending upon what's needed as the wall is being dragged out. Wall towers show up between segments to link them together and hide any ugly seams. Wall Gates show up at regular intervals, provided those intervals have enough length.

A simple click-drag-click will place down the walls in one straight line. Holding shift allows this process to continue, placing endpoints down at a maximum angle of 90 degrees. Additional endpoints can be placed as long as shift is pressed.

City Walls can only be placed in territories owned by the player. The special Roman Siege Walls can be placed anywhere on the map as part of their benefit.

Ring Method

This method is not to replace the click-drag method, but as an additional feature.

There is a band or ring around a Civ Centre that cannot be built upon by the player (except by other walls). This ring is where the wall will go. A button in the Civ Centre's UI can be clicked, which places all the wall foundations for the player along this ring. Actual towers, wall segments, and gates will not cost any additional amount, but the total cost for all wall pieces is paid up-front. The foundations are placed and the player can task citizens to go build it.

Optional feature: click one of the circuit wall's foundations to see an additional UI button. Clicking this brings all idle citizens to the nearest wall segment to build it.

What if resources are in the way (trees, mines, deer, etc.)?!?!? -- Trees will simply be cut through (you lose them), same for berry bushes or anything like that. Deer will automatically walk out of the way (as they should anyway for building foundations). Since the radius of the circuit walls will be known, Metal and Stone mines can easily be placed elsewhere by the random map script or custom scenario designer. Either they cannot be placed on the ring, or they "snap" to one side or the other.

Integration

We could use the Ring Method for city walls in territories owned by the player and the click-drag method for the Roman Siege Walls.

or

We could allow both methods for city walls (and click-drag for Roman siege walls).

or

Similar to Battle for Middle earth II, the ring just represents a radius where the click-drag city walls can be used. No special auto-placement or anything like that.

But I think the more people scream for walkable walls, the more likely we'll do it. At one point we had "gathering auras" instead of resource shuttling because it would be "easier." Then one week Philip sat down on a whim and implemented resource shuttling. Then I was all like, "Awesome sauce!" and within about 2 days made all the necessary props for it and changed the unit actors and stuff, balanced out the entities, and boom: We had resource shuttling. Just because RIGHT NOW figuring out how to do walkable walls is not a priority (at all) for us, doesn't mean someone might not get bored one day and figure it out and implement it. Hopefully a fan will figure this out and program it for us and submit a patch, because we are actually more focused on finishing things called for in the Design Document. Resource Shuttling was an exception, not the rule.

[ribez]

But I think the more people scream for walkable walls, the more likely we'll do it. At one point we had "gathering auras" instead of resource shuttling because it would be "easier." Then one week Philip sat down on a whim and implemented resource shuttling. Then I was all like, "Awesome sauce!" and within about 2 days made all the necessary props for it and changed the unit actors and stuff, balanced out the entities, and boom: We had resource shuttling. Just because RIGHT NOW figuring out how to do walkable walls is not a priority (at all) for us, doesn't mean someone might not get bored one day and figure it out and implement it. Hopefully a fan will figure this out and program it for us and submit a patch, because we are actually more focused on finishing things called for in the Design Document. Resource Shuttling was an exception, not the rule.

+1 walkable walls

[Jeru]

Hah. I had no idea. Do I get to use this story for PR purposes (and quote you verbatim)?

[Alpha of the Eagles]

Btw, how about just making walls costly? I imagine building a wall was a huge investment back in the days, but in most RTS (*cough*AoE*cough*) walls are über-cheap.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Btw, how about just making walls costly? I imagine building a wall was a huge investment back in the days, but in most RTS (*cough*AoE*cough*) walls are über-cheap.

I would make walls very strong, but costly and take a long time to build. Historically there was an incident right after the Persian Wars where Athens' walls had been destroyed by the invading Persians. The Spartans didn't want the Athenians to build new walls (so they would have to rely upon the Spartans for defense). Obviously the Athenians would much rather have their own defenses than rely upon the good graces of the Spartans (who had proved to be both treacherous and unreliable), so they captured the Spartans who were in Athens to prevent them from going back to Sparta and telling the rest of the Spartans that the Athenians were rebuilding their walls. To provide even more time to build the wall, they sent Themistocles to Sparta to stall them. Basically the entire population of Athens was conscripted to assist in rebuilding the walls. They used stone and material from unfinished temples, homes, and whatever they found to build it up as quickly as possible. It still took them a couple of months to build the walls to a defensible height. By this time the Spartans realized what was happening, but they could not harm Themistocles for stalling them due to the Spartan hostages in Athens, so they let Themistocles go in exchange for the Spartan hostages. It was this incident that made Themistocles an enemy in Spartan eyes, and when Themistocles was later banished from Athens for polticial chicanery, the Spartans pursued him across the Greek world and hounded him so much that he was forced into the arms of the Persian king to beg for sanctuary.

Anyway, the ruse succeeded, the Spartans withdrew, and the Athenians finished their walls a few months later. A few years later Themistocles (before his banishment) convinced the Athenians to build walls from Athens to the sea port of Piraeus. This was another massive undertaking, but it was worth it in the end.

[chaosislife]

I like the idea of making the full city walls more costly or time consuming but it leaves me thinking that we need some sort of weaker wall system just for hindering invading armies and defending forward bases. Also it makes me wonder about the celt walls we presently have, just looking at these things i can tell that they're not city walls like the greeks, romans, etc used but rather just trenches. I'd say make actual city walls for the more civilized cultures buildable primarily by the straight worker units and leave something that citizen soldiers could build on the battlefield. The celts could be left with just what they have now for their citizen soldiers since they probably never had true walls. They don't all have to have the same types of structures.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Most of the walls will be redone, so the Celt ones will end up looking different.

[chaosislife]

*gasp* but what about Historical Authenticity?