Citizen- Soldier

[bill2505]

to be honest even if i like this game i dont like on thing . how citizens soldiers are portrayed .now in 2 secondes a citezen turns from gatherer to fully equipped soldier which is unrealistic. my suggestion is that citizents like gatheres dont turn immediately to soldiers but they will need to go to a building like an armory or acropoli to arm themselves

[Mythos_Ruler]

That sounds like a bit too much of micro. However, what if citizens couldn't go back to being soldiers until they drop off their resource load? That could be largely automatic if they are attacked, they would automatically head to the nearest dropsite and deposit their resources before then turning back into soldiers.

[oshron]

well what if the nearest dropsite is several in-game miles away? they could have some way to defend themselves at all times, like a hunting knife

[ribez]

hi, this is my first post, but i'm lurking your project for almost 4 years (it wasn't open source yet) :-)

about the topic, maybe citizens can turn in soldiers in a random time, for example from 1 to 5 (or more) seconds, simulating the time needed to dress the armour and avoiding micromanagement

sorry for my bad english

[Mythos_Ruler]

Your English is good. Yeah, I agree that there needs to be some kind of time-lag between going from gatherer back to soldier. This is needed in order to keep raiding effective. Perhaps citizens have 0 armor when in gathering-mode as well.

[Alagos]

Not being able to fight until dropping resources seems reasonable to me, but oshron is right. What if they just dropped the resources in place and, as ribez said, take some time and get dressed to fight? It wouldn't be the top of realism but it solves the broblem in an elegant way, I think.

[satchitb]

Problem with that is that it makes raiding very easy. Enemies won't need to kill units to make a dent in the enemy economy, just attacking twenty or so gatherers will cause them to drop their load (an average of 10 resource per unit still equals a loss of 200 resource points). That'll cause a huge problem. I prefer the idea of making units deposit their load (or, making the player manually have them drop their load) before changing back into military units.

[comp3820]

I think satchitb is right about the resources, but you could compromise on that by making a pile of wood/gold/stone/iron appear right by where the unit was attacked. I think in real life that's exactly what a unit would do - not worry about putting it in a certain spot, but dropping it right away. The pile would be in the form of a crate or something that can be gathered faster later.

[Alagos]

That's a problem, but only have the option to deposit resources wil cause both killed units and loss of the resources they carry. Maybe you could avoid raids by making dropped resources not retrievable (they just disappear forever). Or you could make unit do to the nearest deposit by default and add an option to instantly get ready to battle.

EDIT: comp3820 was faster but I don't get what you say, are you suggesting of making the resources appear only after death?

Edited April 25, 2011 by Alagos

[comp3820]

I think there should be a pile of resources either way - the unit would drop the resources to defend himself if he was attacked, but even if he was killed right away, there would still be a pile of resources after his death, since that's how it would really happen.

That would make for more interesting raiding, too, since the raiders could wipe out a mine plus all the workers, quickly gather the crates, and walk off with hundreds of resources.

[Shield Bearer]

I think they should have modes. An economic mode and a military mode. Changing to the military mode would be faster the higher the level of the unit. Another thing, when in economic mode the unit shouldn't carry his weapons or shields, it doesn't look at all right the way it is now :/

[Mythos_Ruler]

I think they should have modes. An economic mode and a military mode. Changing to the military mode would be faster the higher the level of the unit. Another thing, when in economic mode the unit shouldn't carry his weapons or shields, it doesn't look at all right the way it is now :/

The way it is now keeps the player informed of which units are what.

[oshron]

perhaps there could be something in the unit where, for the sake of simpler gameplay, they dont drop any resources theyre carrying when theyre attacked, but instead just lose some of their fighting capabilities: they become slower and lose some attacking power depending on how many resources theyre carrying. you shouldnt be able to lose resources youve collected unless the unit carrying them iskilled

[Yihka]

I highly agree on that the idea of being able to change your soldiers to gatherers right away should be changed. When you have a gatherer he/she should have a weakness and the best weakness I can think of it being weaker in combat.

I also think a gatherer should also be the main builder. A soldier should not be able to build everything, unless they have been changed into a gatherer/builder.

For this I thought up a suggestion, mainly because of what I've read above this post. (So credits to you who have mentioned it. I just want to make it in a more detailed post with my idea's.)

Suggestion 1: Armory

To change your soldier into a gatherer, it will take 3 seconds for them to change from a soldier to a gatherer in a building. Gatherers will always carry a weapon depending on the unit you've changed to a gatherer. Soldiers change to gatherers at a Town center or Fortress.

Gatherer:

A gatherer used to be a soldier but instead they have sacrificed all their armour and heavy equipment in favour of gathering equipment. By doing this they are able to gather stuff effectively. As you might know without their armour and their heavy weapons they are more vunerable to attacks. The only way for them to change back would be to go to the nearest Town Center or Fortress

A gatherer will always carry a similar weapon or the same weapon as they had when they were a soldier. Because of this units that were good against calvary will still be good to calvary and units that were good to infantry will still be good to infantry. The only problem is that they will die at a much faster rate because of their lack of equipment.

Town Center:

This is your main building in the game and usually the center of your empire. In the current system you are able to train soldiers from your town center. I think that this should not be possible. Instead you should only be able to train their gatherer counterparts until you have built the actual building where you make the soldiers. (barracks, calvary, archery)

The town center will also be able to train your soldier/gatherers to gatherers/soldiers. Since the Town Center is small, the Town center is only able to change 1 per 3 seconds. To change a gatherer to a soldier you should have the building you normally make the unit from. (Or a research should be unlocked first before you may to do.)

Fortress:

The fortress is famous for being badass. It's big and strong. Because of this, you are able to change soldiers/gatherers to gatherers/soldiers much faster. 3 units are able to get in and they all will change within 3 seconds.

Call to Arms:

At both your Town center and your Fortress there is a button called: Call to Arms. By pressing this button all your gatherers within a certain radius will change into soldiers and protect your city.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Yihka

[Mythos_Ruler]

My idea that they should drop off their resources at the nearest dropsite before fighting back is based on the logic that they stored their arms and armor at the dropsite to go to work. You guys have to think simply. Adding buttons and additional features for such a small thing would be overwhelmingly micro intensive. 99% of the time a dropsite will not be "miles and miles away." If so, then you are a poor macro player and deserve your wretched fate at the spear tips of my elite hoplites.

[feneur]

My idea that they should drop off their resources at the nearest dropsite before fighting back is based on the logic that they stored their arms and armor at the dropsite to go to work. You guys have to think simply. Adding buttons and additional features for such a small thing would be overwhelmingly micro intensive. 99% of the time a dropsite will not be "miles and miles away." If so, then you are a poor macro player and deserve your wretched fate at the spear tips of my elite hoplites.

This is probably the best compromise between realism and gameplay yeah No need for buttons to change something like this imho

[Pureon]

My idea that they should drop off their resources at the nearest dropsite before fighting back is based on the logic that they stored their arms and armor at the dropsite to go to work. You guys have to think simply.

I really like it, great idea Mythos! It makes perfect sense, and means resource gatherers will need greater protection from raiding, which with the existing system isn't really needed.

Would units turn into soldiers on their way back to pick up more resources after dropping off the resources they were carrying?

[Mythos_Ruler]

Would units turn into soldiers on their way back to pick up more resources after dropping off the resources they were carrying?

Might need some extra low-level unit AI so that they have enough "awareness" for this, unless I am not understanding you. What is the context?

[Pureon]

No idea what I meant

Would citizen-soldiers still be able to fight back without going to a dropsite to pick up their soldier class weapons, or do they automatically move towards the nearest dropsite without fighting back?

[Mythos_Ruler]

Would citizen-soldiers still be able to fight back without going to a dropsite to pick up their soldier class weapons, or do they automatically move towards the nearest dropsite without fighting back?

I think they would auto-move to the nearest dropsite to deposit their loads before fighting back. The player could manually task them to defend themselves, but then they'd lose their resource load. What do you think?

[Pureon]

I think they would auto-move to the nearest dropsite to deposit their loads before fighting back. The player could manually task them to defend themselves, but then they'd lose their resource load. What do you think?

That works The unit AI would automatically stop the unit gathering resources and divert them to the nearest dropsite where they can pick up their weapons to become soldiers. Female citizens would either fight back, or run to the nearest garrisonable building (from which they can fire arrows). Do citizen-soldiers all have a small knife to fight back with? The unit's stance setting (which we haven't got yet but I believe it's planned) determines whether a citizen soldier attacks with weak knife or runs for weapons (the third option could make them run for the nearest garrison)

[Mythos_Ruler]

I don't think Female Citizens should "fight back" at all. Perhaps a special ability for Celt/Iberian females? For the most part they should run, because they can be captured.

[oshron]

if theres a history of female warriors in a given civ, legendary or historical, those female citizens should fight back, but of course not be as good at it as citizen soldiers mainly because they arent trained or equipped for it. its not like every woman of the ancient and classical world was eowyn of rohan or tomoe gozen.

for gatherers being attacked, if possible, a gatherer who is being attacked should run to the nearest dropsite. it wouldnt make much sense if they just casually saunter back to the storehouse while theyre being cut to ribbons. maybe as a kind of penalty for this, while theyre running they drop resources which can then never be used again. suppose that a roman gatherer is picking some fruit from a tree and suddenly a celtic warrior approaches him. he panicks, but also realizes that he has to get this food back home or his family will starve AND get his weapons. so he runs (twice as fast as his normal walking speed as a gatherer, plus a new animation if possible), and in his hurry he drops some of the food on the ground, ruining it (bugs, dirt, rabbits, being squashed underfoot by himself and the celt, etc). he tosses the remaining food into the storehouse, grabs his weapons, and emerges to kill the celt. the food and other resources being dropped wouldnt have any animation, but i think it would greatly add to realism. it could be at a fixed rate for each resource: 0.1 units of any given resource is lost per second in the confusion. so if the guy is running for ten seconds, he loses one unit of that resource. chances are, he'd be able to get to the dropsite in that time (unless, as you mentioned mythosruler, it was very far away).

[Alpha of the Eagles]

On the other hand, playing against a Spartan would impossible then. Having a professional army @#$%-whooped by a bunch of women would be balance-breaking, however much realistic it may be. I think you should go with Pureon's idea: they run to nearest garrisonable building to shoot arrows.

Btw, on the trail of shooting arrows from buildings, something has always bothered me: why does every game have the garrison shoot arrows at those troops standing right next to the building. I suggest something like Settlers 4 where they drop boulders on those closest, or something else where they poke a spear through a window or something. But my favorite would be if there were alternate animations, that gives the impression of a rag-tag defense, not an 100 % organized armament.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I think that the addition of stuff like burning oil and boulders would be later with some kind of technological upgrade. Anyway, those would be relatively unrealistic to have infinite amounts of either compared to arrows. As for the usage of women in combat, I am somewhat skeptical. As for the running animations, those will be implemented in alpha 5 I believe. Nevertheless, I would like the idea of having men at least be hacking at the soldiers with something like an axe until the a tocsin is sounded. This could be a god power type thing where it only affects a medium radius of soldiers or it is sounded at a dropsite. (If it were at a dropsite, it would only affect the people who shuttle their resources there.) In this case, the men would run to arms and the women into the civic centers and any other fortification to cower away while the men slaughter the invaders. Perhaps ranged units would keep their weapons with them since they use those for hunting. I suppose that they could run into a tower though so as to release fusillades of arrows.