Civ: Palmyrenes

[Thalatta]

43 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

This is how we sometimes lose people who come to work on our project.

@Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

 had already given me this level of trouble in the past.

And from what I see, @Anaxandridas ho Skandiates left, and you are still here, so...

 

43 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

It's a bit hypocritical to say I can't use AI to play or imagine

I'm not saying that, but if you just dismiss or demean whoever points out something from an AI image, don't rant if you get called out. You are wrong if you think I'll just idly sit and take your BS. Do the smart thing and either provide clear evidence or just say "I don't have any, so that part of the AI image has to be ignored by whoever does the models". And, again, that's simply the end of it. Multi-post whining from you is truly not needed.

Edited 23 hours ago by Thalatta
Had to use BS because the forum won't show bad words :)

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

3 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Gosh. The artist intended to portray accurate footwear, which doesn't have straight edges near the eyelets, but curved ones, as every piece of evidence shows. You are just making up what you can't see from a far away sideways drawing.

 

Delusional.

 

Not enough.

 

Which is just what I did, in a couple of lines. It's you who started acting like some kind of crazy person regurgitating posts that didn't even address the actual point. Just go back and read again.

 

It's not hyper-realism, it's pointing out errors to filter some of all this information. I am also concerned and commented about combat disorganisation, but that is irrelevant right now.

 

Sure, you can keep you-are-new-splaining after an error is pointed out if you want, I just think it would be better for you to try not to look like an ass.

 

Look in the mirror after reading all this exchange again.

 

Why only one? I went through about a dozen books for the Spartans, and same for the Athenians. I went through one just for the Sasanians (and at least an additional article) because @wowgetoffyourcellphone wanted information fast, and I was shifting my focus from what I was actually doing. Ideally I'd want to go through all vanilla and then DE civilisations, but available time is obviously an issue, which I'd prefer not to waste because some crazy person on the forum can't tolerate being told that one of this random AI images have inaccurate footwear and thus needs to demean the discussion he himself says is supposed to happen, which makes the whole thing utterly ridiculous.

You see, that's more useful and less sterile.

I remind you that I am the one who has been working as a contributor here for some time.You, on the other hand, do not.

Apart from you and a few other experts, nobody is going to read an entire book just to make boots for a 3D character( low poly and low definition quality).

I am tolerating your criticism, what I am not tolerating is that you are presuming my intention.

You think AI is going to know about Iranian boots in 3rd century?

I'm telling you that AI doesn't know what a  helmet is.

 

You'll get stressed, but most artists don't represent history, especially those who work in Hollywood as it's believed to be.

You should take things made with AI as sketches or approximations.

What we artists do are sketches and approximations that a third party gave us.

And one thing that bothers me is that you think or say that I'm saying: this is 100% historical, do it this way.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

1 minute ago, Thalatta said:

I'm not saying that

Don't make assumptions I didn't make. I even clearly stated that I did it with AI.You must assume that it is not 100% because if you correct one part of the drawing, it will ruin another.

[Thalatta]

1 hour ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

I remind you that I am the one who has been working as a contributor here for some time.You, on the other hand, do not.

In all honesty, I couldn't give less darns. That doesn't give you any authority or veto over matters of historical fact, so, instead of fallaciously waving insignificant pseudo-credentials, a reliable source or two is what would do it. Otherwise, I couldn't care less if you, or anyone here, have been around since the Big Bang.

I'm not making assumptions beyond what's said. It's clear that you "did it with AI", that it will struggle with "Iranian boots in 3rd century", that they are "sketches or approximations", and that you don't necessarily say "this is 100% historical", so there will be mistakes, hopefully pointed out in the discussion you yourself said could happen, so, again, re-read your whole reaction to me just doing that.

Edited 21 hours ago by Thalatta
Typo

[Lopess]

Gentlemen, please focus on the subject at hand; getting lost in details and arguments is unproductive. It is true that AI makes extrapolations, but—like anything else—it can be used wisely and in moderation. Always bear in mind that this is merely a game; at best, everything is just an approximation.

[Obskiuras]

21 hours ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

The second phase is to find secondary sources.

Illustrations and photos of the renaactor or of reconstructed parts/pieces.

As you can see, not all the armor belongs to infantry, or at least I'm skeptical about using it en masse.

I need more references for this idea... and I'm look around trying to drawings and wargaming figures or even Total war forums/Tale forums.

I also read, but for an artist, reading is not the same as watching.

And if not, I resort to making drawings or asking an artist to do it for me.

We used to turn to Lorgood for sketching.

Lately we've been resorting to @Obskiuras

We had several artists, none of them active.

Some of our artists have gone on to work on current Age of Empires projects. 

I will look for references, mainly from the infantery. Then, I´ll do some sketches.

[Obskiuras]

I couldn´t find enough references, but here some:

About the infantry, it seems that palmyrian soldiers used conical helmets.

Laminar armor, round shields of 90 cm and spear.

[Obskiuras]

Here one image that I did with AI:

[Thalatta]

Had a fast look (since I'm quite busy with other things right now) at The Oxford Handbook of Palmyra, Chapter 12, Palmyra and the Military, From the Roman Period to the Islamic Conquest (that is, "between the first and the early seventh centuries") to have some idea in what units to focus on. I wonder what's the idea of this civilisation anyway, being that they were independent for just a very few years.

 

Regarding Romans in Palmyra

-"The presence of alae is unsurprising in the Palmyrene, as horses would have allowed for the mobility necessary to guard and patrol the vast Syrian steppe".

-"The Ala Vocontiorum" "was replaced by the Cohors I Flavia Chalcidenorum Equitata Sagittariorum", which "included a cavalry element, infantrymen, and Palmyrene archers".

-"Following the events of 272 and Zenobia's rebellion, a garrison of six hundred archers was left in the city".

-"The presence of a legion—which in late antiquity may have numbered some one thousand men—rather than an auxiliary unit, is indicative of the growing importance of Palmyra as a stronghold along the eastern limes".

-"Limitanei (frontier troops)" were also present.

 

Regarding Palmyrans in the Roman army

-"It is reasonable to believe that the military skills of Palmyrene soldiers derive directly from a military tradition first developed to protect the caravan trade and that this ‘caravan police’ was later integrated into the Roman army" and "their adaptability to arid conditions played a pivotal part in their recruitment".

-Sometimes "Palmyrenes constituted auxiliary troops of their own", an example being the "Ala I Ulpia Dromedariorum Palmyrenorum": dromedary riders.

-"Numeri Palmyreni Sagittarii (Palmyrene archers) are known to have been present" at some early Roman campaigns, while some "may well have been Palmyrene militia not in service in the Roman army at that time".

-"The Cohors XX Palmyrenorum" had "their headquarters" "in the temple of Azzanathkona", "and included infantry and cavalry".

-Towards late antiquity, "the Cuneus Equitum Secundorum Clibanarium Palmyrenorum was a vexillatio comitatensis—a cavalry unit—made up of an elite mounted unit of clibanarii, heavily armoured shock cavalry". A "Ala Octava Palmyrenorum" is also mentioned.

 

Regarding Palmyrene militia

-Native militias had the "role of" protecting "the lucrative caravan trade to the east", and "there are at least three known ways in which soldiers could have served in this militia":

1) To "be recruited by the synodiarch or archemporos to provide caravans" "with military protection".

2) To "actively" combat "the nomadic threat, and served under a ‘strategos of the peace’".

3) To "guard nodal trading posts in Persian territory", and "detachments of horsemen" are mentioned.

In any case, and for these points, "their composition and organization remain obscure".

 

There's plenty of bibliography at the end of the chapter, some of which could include illustrations.