Narrative Campaign General Discussion?

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

There is the idea of the Greek colony in Cyrene.

Cyrene, also sometimes anglicized as Kyrene, was an ancient Greek colony and Roman city near present-day Shahhat in northeastern Libya in North Africa. It was part of the Pentapolis, an important group of five cities in the region, and gave the area its classical and early modern name Cyrenaica.

By the fifth century BC, they had expanded their control over the other cities of Cyrenaica. It became the seat of the Cyrenaics, a school of philosophy in the fourth century BC, founded by Aristippus, a disciple of Socrates. In the Hellenistic Age, the city alternated between being part of Ptolemaic Egypt and the capital of an independent kingdom. It was also an important Jewish hub. In 96 BC, it passed to the Roman Republic and became part of the province of Crete and Cyrenaica.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrene,_Libya

 

If you pay attention this story is linked to Egypt, Kushites, Persians and the Greeks obviously.

[ShadowOfHassen]

12 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

If you pay attention this story is linked to Egypt, Kushites, Persians and the Greeks obviously.

I don't think the campaign should be that complex, the history Bar should be practically nonexistent, so the player can focus on learning the mechanics. That idea is a good story, but it might be better suited as a normal campaign

[Lion.Kanzen]

17 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

30 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

If you pay attention this story is linked to Egypt, Kushites, Persians and the Greeks obviously.

I don't think the campaign should be that complex, the history Bar should be practically nonexistent, so the player can focus on learning the mechanics. That idea is a good story, but it might be better suited as a normal campaign

People won't notice that, it's just a background story.

I didn't even notice the story behind the Egypt learning campaign in AoE I.

It's like the Empire Earth ones, I don't remember the story behind it either.

There will be no cinematics and it will be pretty freeform except for locked technologies and units.

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

People won't notice that, it's just a background story.

I didn't even notice the story behind the Egypt learning campaign in AoE I.

It's like the Empire Earth ones, I don't remember the story behind it either.

There will be no cinematics and it will be pretty freeform except for locked technologies and units.

https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Ascent_of_Egypt

That's why my intention was for it not to be something relevant.

They are easy fights and city building.

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Genava55's idea could be Challenge campaign. Our art of war versión.

[Lion.Kanzen]

https://empireearth.fandom.com/wiki/Learning_Campaign

Empire Earth Learning campaign.

Again, history is not as relevant as in the campaigns.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I like this way of campaigns.

 

[ShadowOfHassen]

52 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

People won't notice that, it's just a background story.

I didn't even notice the story behind the Egypt learning campaign in AoE I.

It's like the Empire Earth ones, I don't remember the story behind it either.

There will be no cinematics and it will be pretty freeform except for locked technologies and units.

From what you wrote, it seemed a little more than a footnote in history...

Even that aside, I think only a couple civilizations would make gameplay simpler. Your's would be a good campaign, I'm not sure if it'd be a good tutorial campaign.

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

From what you wrote, it seemed a little more than a footnote in history...

Even that aside, I think only a couple civilizations would make gameplay simpler. Your's would be a good campaign, I'm not sure if it'd be a good tutorial campaign.

Watch the Empirre Earth video and it looks like our idea.

[Vantha]

1 hour ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

I'd add a scenario 0 that covers treasure gathering, moving 101, exploring the map, combat 101, leveling up and pull those objectives partly out of the other lessons.

This is partly because I personally remember struggling with RTS's controls, and a lower stake map dedicated to that would be nice. Also if we do this the first scenario can be focused more on economy and less on the person struggling with left-clicking and right-clicking. (It happens and we should account for it.

That's a good point. Maybe controlling a handful of units, leading them across the map, collecting some treasures, building a camp, and fighting off somd wild animals? Something like that?

1 hour ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

To make it easier to fit with to a story can we gray out upgrades until we want them to do it? A player could accidentally break the tutorial otherwise.

Yes, that is possible. And I agree that it is necessary.

 

 

I know I'm repeating myself, but I like the idea of a building up a colony as well, Cyrene could work well, as long as we keep the story simple. The only problem I see is that most colonies were founded before 500 BC which means they technically fall out of 0ad's time frame. I'm not sure if that's something to worry about.

But I'd also be fine with doing Alexander the Great.

[Lion.Kanzen]

22 minutes ago, Vantha said:

But I'd also be fine with doing Alexander the Great.

 it dates back long after the first campaigns.

There is also already an Alexander's campaign in progress.

Furthermore, Alexander did not found cities until after many battles.

Mostly in Asia.

Aristotle was not Alexander's only tutor.

The problem is that the Athenians, Spartans and Persians all date from before 500 BC.

The only relevant fact is this one regarding a city in Greece.

"Refugees from Teos resettle Abdera".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdera,_Thrace

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century_BC

In 499 the Ionian rebellion begins.

There is not much history before 499 BC.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The founding of Syracuse could be your topic.

[ShadowOfHassen]

50 minutes ago, Vantha said:

That's a good point. Maybe controlling a handful of units, leading them across the map, collecting some treasures, building a camp, and fighting off somd wild animals? Something like that?

My basic outline for scenario 0

"Let's go find a place to set up a colony"

Walking through waypoints"

"Ah! Wild animals"

Fighting.

"Oooh look here's a treasure"

More walking with hidden treasures and some more fighting.

"This looks like a good place to set up a colony, let's build a civic center" (from the materials we got from treasures)

End.

 

52 minutes ago, Vantha said:

I know I'm repeating myself, but I like the idea of a building up a colony as well, Cyrene could work well, as long as we keep the story simple. The only problem I see is that most colonies were founded before 500 BC which means they technically fall out of 0ad's time frame. I'm not sure if that's something to worry about.

I wouldn't worry about it. Personally, I think we should pick a colony that we know literally nothing about other than it exists so we can play fast and loose with it.

Also the battles should be rather low stakes, (fledgling colony vs bandits or something). I think the simpler/ lower stakes the conflict, the better. (Keeps the important civs down to one)

 

4 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The founding of Syracuse could be your topic.

Yes it could. Any reasonably remote colony could work, I was going for an Athenian colony because we already have an Athenian civ and so that's less time. But I'm not married to my idea, as long as we can get the story small.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Some sources speak of 734 BC:

Syracuse was settled about 734 bce by Corinthians led by the aristocrat Archias, and the city soon dominated the coastal plain and hill country beyond. The original Greek settlers of the city formed an elite (gamoroi), while the Sicel natives (Siculi) worked the land as an oppressed class. 

https://www.britannica.com/place/Syracuse-Italy

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

I am not opposed to Syracuse idea, it will be the same, but there must be enemies for it to be functional.

[Lion.Kanzen]

The descendants of the first colonists, called Gamoroi, held power until they were expelled by the lower class of the city assisted by Cyllyrians, identified as enslaved natives similar in status to the helots of Sparta.[18][19] The former, however, returned to power in 485 BC, thanks to the help of Gelo, ruler of Gela. Gelo himself became the despot of the city, and moved many inhabitants of Gela, Kamarina and Megara to Syracuse, building the new quarters of Tyche and Neapolis outside the walls.

Here is material for the following maps.

Enemies and above all a conflict to resolve.

 

About Cyllyrians: 

After this stroke of good fortune, Gelon brought back from the town of Casmena to Syracuse both the so-called landed gentry of Syracuse, who had been driven into exile by the common people, and their slaves, the Cyllyrians. He then took possession of that city also, for the Syracusan common people surrendered themselves and it to Gelon at his coming.

 

Herodotus, with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D7%3Achapter%3D155%3Asection%3D2

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

About Cyllyrians: 

After this stroke of good fortune, Gelon brought back from the town of Casmena to Syracuse both the so-called landed gentry of Syracuse, who had been driven into exile by the common people, and their slaves, the Cyllyrians. He then took possession of that city also, for the Syracusan common people surrendered themselves and it to Gelon at his coming.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicels

I don't know if they are related.

The Sicels (/ˈsɪkəlz, ˈsɪsəlz/ SIK-əlz, SISS-əlz; Latin: Sicelī or Siculī) were an Indo-European tribe who inhabited eastern Sicily, their namesake, during the Iron Age. They spoke the Siculian language. After the defeat of the Sicels at the Battle of Nomae in 450 BC and the death of Sicel leader Ducetius in 440 BC, the Sicel state broke down and the Sicel culture merged into Magna Graecia.

Sicel leader, Ducetius, was able to create an organised Sicel state as a unitary domain in opposition to Greek Syracusa, including several cities in the central and south of the island. After a few years of independence, in 450 BC, his army was defeated by the Greeks in the Battle of Nomae and he died ten years later. Without his charisma, the movement collapsed and the increasingly Hellenized culture of the Sicels lost its distinctive character. But in the winter of 426/5 Thucydides noted the presence among the allies of Athens in the siege of Syracuse of Sicels who had "previously been allies of Syracuse, but had been harshly governed by the Syracusans and had now revolted". (Thucydides 3.103.1) Aside from Thucydides, the Greek literary sources on Sicels and other pre-Hellenic peoples of Sicily are to be found in fragmentary scattered quotes from the lost material of Hellanicus of Lesbos and Antiochus of Syracuse

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicels

I don't know if they are related.

The Sicels (/ˈsɪkəlz, ˈsɪsəlz/ SIK-əlz, SISS-əlz; Latin: Sicelī or Siculī) were an Indo-European tribe who inhabited eastern Sicily, their namesake, during the Iron Age. They spoke the Siculian language. After the defeat of the Sicels at the Battle of Nomae in 450 BC and the death of Sicel leader Ducetius in 440 BC, the Sicel state broke down and the Sicel culture merged into Magna Graecia.

Sicel leader, Ducetius, was able to create an organised Sicel state as a unitary domain in opposition to Greek Syracusa, including several cities in the central and south of the island. After a few years of independence, in 450 BC, his army was defeated by the Greeks in the Battle of Nomae and he died ten years later. Without his charisma, the movement collapsed and the increasingly Hellenized culture of the Sicels lost its distinctive character. But in the winter of 426/5 Thucydides noted the presence among the allies of Athens in the siege of Syracuse of Sicels who had "previously been allies of Syracuse, but had been harshly governed by the Syracusans and had now revolted". (Thucydides 3.103.1) Aside from Thucydides, the Greek literary sources on Sicels and other pre-Hellenic peoples of Sicily are to be found in fragmentary scattered quotes from the lost material of Hellanicus of Lesbos and Antiochus of Syracuse

Founded around 582 BC by Greek colonists from Gela,[3] Agrigento, then known as Akragas.

The Sicels were one of the original inhabitants of Sicily but their territory was slowly shrinking due to the expansion of the Greek colonies on the island, mainly Syracuse and Akragas. However, in the 450s BCE they had grown in power under a leader named Ducetius, who had united the Sicel territory under his rule. He was originally an ally of Syracuse, helping them in a war against Catana. However, as he grew in power, and also began to expand into Greek territory, Syracuse became concerned. When Ducetius attacked the other major Sicilian Greek power Akragas, the city asked Syracuse for help and Syracuse agreed.[2]

 

Fielding 6,000 men along with 900 cavalry, the united Greek force commanded by Bolcon of Syracuse advanced towards Ducetius's army, which was besieging the stronghold Motyon (Motya) and met him in battle there.[2] Recognising that he was at a numerical disadvantage, Ducetius launched a surprise attack against the Greeks at dawn and completely routed them, allowing his army to capture Motyon.[3] Bolcon was accused of colluding with Ducetius and was subsequently executed.

The Greeks regrouped over winter and launched a second assault in the spring of 450. Akragas moved to retake Motyon while Syracuse, who were probably fielding their full remaining army of around 4,500 to 5,500 troops, moved to engage Ducetius. The forces met at Nomae and the Greeks gained a victory this time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nomae

 

[Genava55]

11 hours ago, Vantha said:

But I'd also be fine with doing Alexander the Great.

The advantage with Alexander is that there is more flexibility. Ideally, you would start with a scenario where Alexander is with his first two tutors, Leonidas and Lysimachus, as well as his father accompanied by Aristotle. Philip II could introduce Aristotle to Alexander during a royal hunt, which would be a bit of a pretext to introduce the player to the simplest controls like movement and resource gathering, but also introduce the minimap, fog of war etc. Philip II could convince Aristotle to be his son's new tutor in exchange for rebuilding Stagira.

Then in the second part, there could be a scenario with on one side Aristotle teaching Alexander and his companions in Pella and on the other Philip II rebuilding the city of Stagira to honor Aristotle. In the 3rd part, the player will have more freedom when Alexander will be an adult and will make his first fights and found his first city.

[Vantha]

In my opinion, the story has to include...

- a single-stranded, easy-to-follow plot. No time or place jumps.

- any element that new players can recognize right at the beginning. Could a person, a place, or a civilization.

- one clear protagonist (a hero) throughout the entire campaign. Could be the founder of the colony.

- one clear enemy (a group of people) fought against throughout the entire campaign. That could be bandits, a tribe, a city, a civilization, etc.

And (at least to a large extent) only require units and civilizations that we already have in the game.

 

Unless I'm missing something, the best concrete ideas so far are: Cyrene (or Naukratis), Syracusae, Alexander the Great. I think they could all work out in some way, but we need to come to an agreement and pick one of them.

Edited October 26 by Vantha

[ShadowOfHassen]

1 hour ago, Vantha said:

In my opinion, the story has to include...

- a single-stranded, easy-to-follow plot. No time or place jumps.

- any element that new players can recognize right at the beginning. Could a person, a place, or a civilization.

- one clear protagonist (a hero) throughout the entire campaign. Could be the founder of the colony.

- one clear enemy (a group of people) fought against throughout the entire campaign. That could be bandits, a tribe, a city, a civilization, etc.

And (at least to a large extent) only require units and civilizations that we already have in the game.

I agree.

1 hour ago, Vantha said:

Unless I'm missing something, the best concrete ideas so far are: Cyrene (or Naukratis), Syracusae, Alexander the Great. I think they could all work out in some way, but we need to come to an agreement and pick one of them.

We also had my original idea of doing some Athenian colony like Thrace...

[Vantha]

4 hours ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

We also had my original idea of doing some Athenian colony like Thrace...

But what specific colony? Or do you want to make one up?

[ShadowOfHassen]

13 minutes ago, Vantha said:

But what specific colony? Or do you want to make one up?

I'd do one that we know only a little about, one of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Athenian_colonies

I had a mistype in the other post and instead of the region of Thrace I meant a settlement like Neapolis in Thrace or another one

Edited October 26 by ShadowOfHassen

[ShadowOfHassen]

We could do it about Cardia  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardia_(Thrace) and have the hero be  Miltiades the Elder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miltiades_the_Elder

 

Of course all my current research is just from Wikipedia, and we'd have to double-check things, but a place like that looks promising.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

We could do it about Cardia  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardia_(Thrace) and have the hero be  Miltiades the Elder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miltiades_the_Elder

 

Of course all my current research is just from Wikipedia, and we'd have to double-check things, but a place like that looks promising.

I like to use Britannica to check.