Narrative Campaign General Discussion?

[alre]

I think it's a mistake to take campaigns like those from starcraft or aom as a model for a historical game like ours. it can be quite awkward to attribute to historical characters narrative roles, including personal drives, flings and fights, character arcs and plot twists.

The main selling point for historical RTS is to give players the chance to reenact big historical moments. Impervim GBOR understood that and introduced their scripted scenarios with effective short videos:

https://youtu.be/9KNsYGoogxY?si=Cn6NvHu8nIb3aOOr

Inside the scenarios, there are dialogues, but they are relevant for the game mostly, not for the story or for narration.

[Lion.Kanzen]

10 minutes ago, alre said:

I think it's a mistake to take campaigns like those from starcraft or aom as a model for a historical game like ours. it can be quite awkward to attribute to historical characters narrative roles, including personal drives, flings and fights, character arcs and plot twists

There are parts that might make sense like the Punic Wars or Caesar's campaign.

I actually aim for many scenarios like those in AoE I.

Simple start, few buildings, few units.

Very different from many AoM scenarios.

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

22 minutes ago, alre said:

Inside the scenarios, there are dialogues, but they are relevant for the game mostly, not for the story or for narration.

I don't intend to spin a story from the dialogues in the scenes.

The context would be explained in the "brief".

Scenario instructions and history .

Then in some scenarios there will be small dialogues at the beginning, see the first minutes of the Roman civil war scenario in the empire earth campaign.

To be honest I don't want script abuse, I want few interruptions, not many like in Age of Empires II.

Edited December 24, 2024 by Lion.Kanzen

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 19/12/2024 at 1:14 PM, Vantha said:

I'm aware of the tool, but I'm afraid it alone won't cut it in many places. While great-looking, the new textures can't really be matched 1:1  to all the old ones.

 

On 19/12/2024 at 7:00 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone

You probably need to add a yellowish tone and it would be a Spanish variant.

 

Okay, I get it now, guys. 

Please use the Aegean_Anatolian textures for now and after A27 is released I'll make an "Iberian" set of terrains for you to use. I'll base it 1:1 on the Aegean_Anatolian set, but adjust the colors and a few other things to match these references. Basically a bit browner/yellower version of Aegean_Anatolian. Then you can easily use the Replace tool in Atlas. 

Sound like a plan?

[Lion.Kanzen]

27 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Iberian

Iberian Levantine/ Baetica

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Just for fun:

[Lion.Kanzen]

39 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Just for fun:

Perfect I like.

Btw ...Are you going to put exclamations like in Titan Quest or an RPG?

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

50 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Just for fun:

Another idea, I like that of giving the objectives in a narrative way at the beginning of the scenario.

As in the screenshots.

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Another idea, I like that of giving the objectives in a narrative way at the beginning of the scenario.

As in the screenshots.

Basically, narrative is immersion in the story, context, and objectives of the mission.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

17 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Perfect I like.

Btw ...Are you going to put exclamations like in Titan Quest or an RPG?

 

Right, some kind of bouncing or glowing icon over the speaking unit in-world would be good. 

 

9 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Another idea, I like that of giving the objectives in a narrative way at the beginning of the scenario.

As in the screenshots.

Right. I can envision the black bars disappearing, the camera pulling back to gameplay zoom distance, and then the Objectives pop up in a checkbox list.

"Gather your supplies with your Citizens and find a good spot to build your Civic Center!"

 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

20 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Right. I can envision the black bars disappearing, the camera pulling back to gameplay zoom distance, and then the Objectives pop up in a checkbox list.

 Those bars are like a panoramic cinema composition 

Epic film style.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by Lion.Kanzen

[Vantha]

14 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Please use the Aegean_Anatolian textures for now and after A27 is released I'll make an "Iberian" set of terrains for you to use. I'll base it 1:1 on the Aegean_Anatolian set, but adjust the colors and a few other things to match these references. Basically a bit browner/yellower version of Aegean_Anatolian. Then you can easily use the Replace tool in Atlas. 

Sound like a plan?

Oh, actually, I already did quite a bit of painting with the new textures, using a palette of Aegean-Anatolian grass and dirt and some sand and cliff textures from the desert biome (mostly the Persian variants). I think it works well enough:

 

[Vantha]

On 25/12/2024 at 11:45 AM, Vantha said:

Oh, actually, I already did quite a bit of painting with the new textures, using a palette of Aegean-Anatolian grass and dirt and some sand and cliff textures from the desert biome (mostly the Persian variants). I think it works well enough:

 

Should I continue painting with those textures or switch over to the Aegean-Anatolian and later replace them with said Iberian variants?

[Lion.Kanzen]

Baetica system.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baetic_System

The Baetic System or Betic System (Spanish: Sistema Bético) is one of the main systems of mountain ranges in Spain. Located in the southern and eastern Iberian Peninsula, it is also known as the Cordilleras Béticas (Baetic Mountain Ranges) or Baetic Mountains. The name of the mountain system derives from the ancient Roman region of Baetica, one of the Imperial Roman provinces of ancient Hispania.

I didn't know that the modern name of Betis comes from Baetica.

The name "Betis" is derived from Baetis, the Roman name for the Guadalquivir river which passes through Seville and which the Roman province there was named after. Real ('Royal') was added in 1914 after the club received patronage from King Alfonso XIII.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone Vantha needs an answer.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

@Vantha If I were you, I'd stay with the aegean_anatolian textures since they all blend the best together, then wait on my new "iberian" set. 

[Vantha]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

@Vantha If I were you, I'd stay with the aegean_anatolian textures since they all blend the best together, then wait on my new "iberian" set. 

Honestly, I'm not so keen on repainting everything a second time. I think the current textures blend together quite well already, but my opinion here might be biased by all the effort I put into it. Here is the map in its current state:

carthago_nova.pmpcarthago_nova.xml

What do you think?

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

16 minutes ago, Vantha said:

Honestly, I'm not so keen on repainting everything a second time. I think the current textures blend together quite well already, but my opinion here might be biased by all the effort I put into it. Here is the map in its current state:

carthago_nova.pmp 1002 kB · 2 downloads carthago_nova.xml 188.62 kB · 2 downloads

What do you think?

 

That's why it has to be done as a team.

It would be good if we all saw the map and decided how to proceed.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Carthage Nova was founded around 227 BC under the name of Qart Hadasht (New City) by the Carthaginian general Asdrubal the Beautiful, son-in-law and successor of General Hannibal's father Hannibal Hamilcar Barca. Carthage Nova is the most important of the cities of the peninsula, owing to a strong position and a well-built wall, and is provided with harbors, lagoons and silver mines.[1] In Carthage Nova and the surrounding cities there is salting in abundance, and it is the chief emporium for goods coming from the sea destined for the inhabitants of the interior, and for products from the interior destined for foreigners.

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartago_Nova

Spanish wiki(  English version not avaible).

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Carthage Nova was founded around 227 BC under the name of Qart Hadasht (New City) by the Carthaginian general Asdrubal the Beautiful, son-in-law and successor of General Hannibal's father Hannibal Hamilcar Barca. Carthage Nova is the most important of the cities of the peninsula, owing to a strong position and a well-built wall, and is provided with harbors, lagoons and silver mines.[1] In Carthage Nova and the surrounding cities there is salting in abundance, and it is the chief emporium for goods coming from the sea destined for the inhabitants of the interior, and for products from the interior destined for foreigners.

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartago_Nova

Spanish wiki(  English version not avaible).

It seems, however, that the city was not founded ex novo, but was built on a previous Iberian or Tartessian settlement. There is evidence of trade with the Phoenicians from the eighth century BC along the coast. In addition, Cartagena has traditionally been associated with the city of Mastia mentioned by the Greco-Latin poet Avieno in the work called Ora maritima (which gathers the oldest preserved news about the Iberian Peninsula), and also mentioned in the second Roman-Carthaginian treatise in 348 B.C. as Mastia Tarseion (Mastia of the Tartessians).

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

It seems, however, that the city was not founded ex novo, but was built on a previous Iberian or Tartessian settlement. There is evidence of trade with the Phoenicians from the eighth century BC along the coast. In addition, Cartagena has traditionally been associated with the city of Mastia mentioned by the Greco-Latin poet Avieno in the work called Ora maritima (which gathers the oldest preserved news about the Iberian Peninsula), and also mentioned in the second Roman-Carthaginian treatise in 348 B.C. as Mastia Tarseion (Mastia of the Tartessians).

Objectives:

defeat Iberian settlement, destroy CC or capture CC.

Then build walls, build a Mining building ( warehouse)

collect silver from local mine.

Build a market.

Cr are a trade route.

+++++

Opinions? 

[Vantha]

As far as I'm able to tell, there is no evidence for Mastia being situated on the exact peninsula. The argument is that, firstly, if he could Hasdrubal would likely have founded the city on an existing settlement rather than building it from the ground up, simply because it'd save a lot of time, effort, and resources. And secondly, given how naturally well protected the spot is, it's unlikely that the indigenous (Tartessian) tribes wouldn't had made use of it in some way before the Carthaginians arrived.

In any way, Hasdrubal's encounter with the local tribes were mostly friendly and he was known for favoring diplomatic measures over military ones. That's why he is called 'the Fair'.

 

I wrote an outline for the very first scenario a few pages back:

Quote

The player starts in the southwestern/bottom-left corner with a couple of soldiers, women, and the hero, but no structures, and is told to scout the land for a suitable place to build the colony. Because there are no ships yet, the player is indirectly forced to make their way counter-clockwise around the map. On the way, two things happen: Firstly, the player finds a treasure and collects it. He is then told to collect enough treasures more from around the map to afford a civic center. Secondly, a few wild animals attack some of his units, and the player learns the basics of combat. Eventually, he will find his way onto the target peninsula and is ordered to construct a civic center here. The player "wins" the game as soon as the construction of this civic center is finished.

And this is my old plan for the next three scenarios:

On 25/10/2024 at 12:16 AM, Vantha said:

(I deliberately left out ships and naval warfare for now as I feel like all that should probably be taught in a seperate, fourth scenario.)

(Core concepts (marked with a *) need more detailed (skippable) explanations for player new to the genre.)

  Hide contents

1. Scenario

Goal: develop a starting economy, survive a small raid by the enemy, and advance to town phase

 

Concepts:

gathering resources* and placing dropsites

training units*

building structures*

building houses to increase the population limit*

research technologies*

unit classes

raising and ending alerts

basics of combat

 

Resources to collect:

wood

food

 

Units to train:

Women

Citizen Infantry

Citizen Cavalry

 

Structures to build:

Dropsites - Farmsteads and Storehouses

Houses

Fields

(Coral?)

Barracks

Stable

Outposts

 

Technologies to research:

improve gather rates

Town Phase

 

 

 

 

2. Scenario

Goal: Scout for strategically important positions, take over an enemy camp, fortify it, protect it against a large recapture attempt, advance to city phase

 

Concepts:

exploring the map*

Territory - roots, expansion, decay*

defensive fortifications and garrisons

defending against attacks

capturing

Bartering

(Trading?)

 

Resources to collect:

Stone

Metal

 

Units to train:

Merchants

(Mercenaries)

 

Structures to build:

Forge

Sentry Towers and Stone Towers

Palisades and Walls

Market

 

Technologies to research:

increase unit damage

increase unit resistance

increase population bonus of houses

upgrade sentry tower to stone tower

enhance stone towers

 

3. Scenario

Goals: develop a strong army, conduct a full-scale attack, destroy the enemy’s city, actually win the game

 

Concepts:

building a second Civic Center

using Siege Engines

healing wounded units

 

Units to train:

Champions

Heroes

Siege Engines - Battering Rams and Catapults

Healers

 

 

Structures to build:

Arsenal

Hero and Champion training facilities

Fortress

Temple

second Civic Center

(Wonder?)

 

Technologies to research:

unlocking Champions

increasing damage and resistance of Siege Engines

(Will to Fight?)

(Glorious Expansion?)

 

 

 

 

 

As already planned, the guided tutorial section encompasses three scenarios, the first one focusing on the Village Phase, the second one the Town Phase, and the third one on the City Phase.
It is possible to set custom victory conditions from scenario scripts and my idea is to make it the winning goal of the first scenario to reach Town Phase, and of the second one to reach City Phase. And to let them build on each other, so at the beginning of the second and third one to just tell the player "Do what you did before." and start guiding again when the player has reached point they haven't been to before.
For technologies, I would not individually order the player to research every single important one, but rather tell the player "This structure has important technologies. Periodically check for available one here and research them as soon as you comfortably can." and remind them to do so if they forget about it.

The question is whether, and if so, how to exactly embed Mastia into our story?

 

To get back to the map, how do you think the textures fit together? How noticeable is the mix of two biomes?

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, Vantha said:

As far as I'm able to tell, there is no evidence for Mastia being situated on the exact peninsula. The argument is that, firstly, if he could Hasdrubal would likely have founded the city on an existing settlement rather than building it from the ground up, simply because it'd save a lot of time, effort, and resources. And secondly, given how naturally well protected the spot is, it's unlikely that the indigenous (Tartessian) tribes wouldn't had made use of it in some way before the Carthaginians arrived.

In any way, Hasdrubal's encounter with the local tribes were mostly friendly and he was known for favoring diplomatic measures over military ones. That's why he is called 'the Fair'.

 

?

Mastia should be nearby in case of a new settlement.

That also happens in the ancient world. 

An old city close to a new, better established one.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Mastia (or Massia of the Tartessians) is an ancient Iberian settlement, belonging to the Tartessian confederation, once located in southeastern Spain. It has traditionally been associated with the city of Cartagena (Spain).[1] The association has been made principally from the analysis of classical sources in the early 20th century by Adolf Schulten.

The first description of the city of Mastia appears in a poem entitled Ora Maritima (Sea Coasts) by the Latin poet Rufius Festus Avienius from the 4th-century AD. The poem claims to contain borrowings from the mythic 6th-century BC Massiliote Periplus. The description of Avienus reads:

 

... then the port is Namnatio that from the sea opens its curve near the town of Massienos. And at the bottom of the Gulf rise the high walls of the city of Massia ...

 

Rufius Festus Avienus, Ora Maritima.

However, there is currently no conclusive evidence that the Mastia of Avienus refers to the same site where Cartagena will be founded. Context and other geographic descriptions that precede and follow these lines suggest that it could refer to the same location. Some scholars[who?] locate Mastia somewhere near the ancient city of Carteia (near modern Gibraltar), at the head of the Bay of Algeciras.

In addition to the Ora Maritima, there is also a reference to Mastia in the treaty between Rome and Carthage of 348 BC, as Μαστια Ταρσειων (Mastia of the Tartessians), which marked the Roman boundary on the Iberian Peninsula.

 

For Hecataeus of Miletus know that some cities were dependent on or under the influence of Mastia field and mentioned:

 

Sixos of the Mastians. The only one that can be confidently identified. It corresponds to the current Sexi (Almuñécar)

Maniobora of the Mastians.

Molybdine of the Mastians.

Syalis of the Mastians.

Its mineral wealth, fisheries, and agriculture was the cause of the Kingdom of Tartessos keeping it in their area of influence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastia

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Another source:

 

Carthago Nova (modern-day Cartagena) was a city on the southern Iberian Peninsula, Spain, originally known as Mastia. Human habitation of the region predates the Neolithic Period, but the area around the site of Carthago Nova seems to have been sparsely populated until after the Bronze Age when a port city was built on a peninsula jutting into the Mediterranean Sea.

The 4th-century AD Latin poet Rufus Festus Avienus identified Mastia with Massia of the Tartessians but that city was located in the region of the Tartessian Confederation around the ancient city of Carteia (near Gades, modern-day Cadiz), although the Tartessians almost certainly traded with Mastia and, according to some scholars, were the original inhabitants of the region.

The city of Mastia was a known trade center of the Phoenicians (who may have founded it) and who traded with the Tartessians, well-known for their production of silver. Scholar B. H. Warmington, following earlier scholars, identifies Tartessos (in the region around Cadiz) with Tarshish from the Bible (Genesis 10:4, I Chronicles 1:7, Ezekiel 27:12, among others) and points out how similar the coastline around Cadiz is to that of ancient Mastia, thus explaining how ancient authors may have confused the two (though the site of biblical Tarshish has not been agreed on by any scholarly consensus). It has also been established that Mastia and Carteia were both known for their silver mines, wealth of resources, and their engagement in maritime trade.

 

Hamilcar and his son Hannibal (l. 247-183 BC), along with his son-in-law Hasdrubal the Fair, went to Iberia allegedly to take the Iberian silver mines in order to pay Carthage's debt to Rome but, actually, to colonize the region and renew hostilities.

https://www.worldhistory.org/Carthago_Nova/

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by Lion.Kanzen