Nescio
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Posts posted by Nescio
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First of all, I don't disagree with you, Sundiata. Nevertheless I can't resist the temptation to problematize things, therefore let's continue this interesting off-topic discussion
6 hours ago, Sundiata said:Classical Antiquity
I'm assuming you simply mean Antiquity (the era of Classical civilizations, c. 1000 B.C. to 500 A.D.), not Classical Antiquity (the period of Athens and other Greek city states, clearly defined as 480 to 323 B.C.).
[EDIT: although historians (those who study everything up to now) often use “Classical” and “Antiquity” as more or less equivalents, classicists (those who study Antiquity) reserve “Classical period” typically for the 480-323 BC timeframe (not necessarily restricted to Greece) and “Antiquity” for c. 800 BC-500 AD, which I do as well.]
6 hours ago, Sundiata said:Ancient theocratic societies start making way for ambitious imperial powerhouses bent on conquest and higher volume, long distance trade.
This simplistic view is blatantly wrong in all respects.
6 hours ago, Sundiata said:Bronze Age forms a continuum. Classical Iron Age forms a continuum. Middle Ages form a continuum.
Yes, yes, and yes. However:
6 hours ago, Sundiata said:Off course there is some continuity in the transition between the major ages, but those periods are mostly marked by extreme volatility, widespread conflict, disaster and especially obscurity.
The same can be argued for many other periods inside those “major ages”, e.g. we know very little of the 3rd C AD (transition from Principate to Dominate) or the 7th C AD (transition from Migration period to Carolingian period), but far more from the 4th, 5th, and 6th C AD. And the only reason why the Middle Ages are typically dated 476-1453 is because the transitions are impossible to pinpoint. Late Antiquity is in many respects (literature, legislation, Christianity) markedly different than Classical, Hellenistic, and Principate Antiquity. It could be argued that the Middle Ages start as early as Caracalla (who made everyone living in the Roman empire a Roman citizen) or Constantine (who established and organized Christian Catholic Church), or as late as Hereclius (who finally replaced Latin with Greek as the official language of the Roman Empire). The Roman Empire in the Western Mediterranean continued well after its “fall” in 476 until it was effectively destroyed by Justinian's Italian Wars a century later, and the Roman Empire in the Eastern Mediterranean “fell” in 1453 but was actually continued by the Ottomans.
Even apparently unproblematic concepts as Bronze Age or Iron Age are not as clear as they might seem. Iron objects (from meteoric iron) were produced and traded for centuries during the Bronze Age, and bronze continued to be the material of prefence for centuries during the Iron Age; the only difference between them is the technique to produce iron from iron ore (which has a significant higher melting point than other metals). And as you've pointed out yourself, Bronze Age and Iron Age start at different periods in different regions, sometimes separated by thousands of years.
And where the Bronze Age ends and the Iron Age starts in the Near East is also non-obvious and a matter of scholarly debate. Part of the problem is that there is a gap in historical records (the so-called Dark Ages), the extent of which is unknown (people ceased writing) and can only be guessed, estimates of which range from a few decades to several centuries. Yes, societies collapsed everywhere, however, not all of them; destruction appears random, e.g. for neighbouring cities: destroyed, destroyed, survived undamaged, destroyed, continued significantly reduced, etc. And opinions on dates are shifting; a century ago the Homeric epics (the traditional start of Antiquity) was dated closer to 900, nowadays the consensus is closer to 700.
Anyway, I fully agree with you that it would make more sense to let 0 A.D. begin around the 8th C B.C., because then there are many things reappearing and fundamentally changing everywhere about simultaneously:
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Assyrians reconquer Syria and Mesopotamia and establish the Neo-Assyrian empire
- Chaldeans shake off Assyrian control and later establish the Neo-Babylonian empire
- Urartu (proto-Armenia, directly north of Assyria) asserts itself
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Greek city states appear (Argos, Corinth, Megara, Athens, Thebes)
- literature reappears (Homeric epics)
- Olympic games and other pan-Hellenic activities start
- Greeks and Phoenicians create colonies everywhere in the Mediterranean
- Carthage, Rome, and Syracusae are founded
- Etruscans emerge in Italy
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Lydian kingdom emerges in Asia
- invention of coinage (a world's first)
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Kushites emergeKushite kingdom with capital at Napata emerges in Nubia and expands into Egypt (instead of the other way around)
[EDIT: To clarify, with “emerge” I do not mean they appear out of nowhere; those peoples lived in their regions for centuries before they “emerge” as dominant powers; I simply use “emerge” here as a shorthand for: “they suddenly are organized in strong states and start influencing everything around them, instead of being dominated by their neighbours.”]
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Assyrians reconquer Syria and Mesopotamia and establish the Neo-Assyrian empire
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Yes, that's correct, no, that's probably not as intended. Unfortunately the stoa and its unit templates are a rather inconsistent mess; disabling all of them now and possibly reintroducing them systematically at a later stage might not be a bad idea.
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9 hours ago, LordGood said:
Wish I had more Persian buildings to model lol
Feel free to design Persian elephant stables, chariot stables, camel stables, and military shipyard
Anyway, I agree creating siege workshops for all other factions is more important.
9 hours ago, LordGood said:I almost forgot that the Mauryans have no siege weapons at all.
That they currently don't have any doesn't mean they won't or shouldn't have any; those might be added eventually, therefore omitting a Mauryan siege workshop is a bad idea. In your own words:
14 hours ago, LordGood said:every playable faction is getting all 3. No shortcuts.
Anyway, I'd like to emphasize I really appreciate your work.
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Although I do know next to nothing about India, I am aware that the Mauryan empire emerged as an indirect result of Alexander's Indian campaigns, during and after which many Greeks settled in and around the Indus Valley. Those Greek city states in India survived for centuries, conducting trade and diplomacy with their non-Greek neighbours, and supplying them with Greek culture, products, and mercenaries; undoubtedly siege weapons were available as well (the Macedonians had skilled engineers, and most types of siege weapons are well attested as being used by Alexander's army).
Other interesting Greek influences are coinage and sculpture (the mouth and ears typical of Classical Greek sculpture were assimilated into Buddhist sculpture, which later spread from India to Tibet, China, India, and Japan), as well as legend (Alexander was incorporated in mythologies throughout Southern Asia, from Persia/Iran to Java/Indonesia).
Anyway, although other siege weapons would certainly be nice, at the very least I'd like to see an Indian battering ram (in my 0abc mod I'm currently using the Celtic visual actor for the Mauryans as well, which is far from perfect).
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Again, many thanks for your decent work and quick replies, I really appreciate it! I'll include the unit in my mod (0abc), assuming you don't object. Maybe someone else could also upload the gastraphetes into the default 0 A.D. distribution.
Anyway, if you're not yet tired of helping me, I've posted three more unit requests in my modification questions and answers topic: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/21083-how-to-start-modifying/&page=6
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Sorry, which one is which?
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Many thanks for your quick and excellent work!
I probably should have specified it earlier (hopefully you're not annoyed by me asking now), but would giving the unit a Boeotion helmet instead of the current one be possible?
Spoiler
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38. Could anyone remove those obelisks from the Ptolemaic civil centre and military colony?
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Off topic.
Sundiata: regardless which year you choose, any cut-off point is always arbitrary. Time is a continuum and (in your own words) “a lot of really interesting and interconnected stuff was happening the 2 centuries or so before and after” can't be avoided. Therefore humanity typically reverts to traditional years, which although inherently wrong are actually quite convenient starting dates:
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Antiquity:
- Archaic period: 753 (legendary foundation Rome)
- Classical period: 480 (Athens burned to the ground, Greeks defeated the Persians)
- Hellenistic period: 323 (death Alexander)
- Principate (Early Roman Empire): 27 B.C. (Octavian defeats Antony and becomes Augustus)
- Dominate (Late Roman Empire): 284 A.D. (Diocletian becomes emperor)
- Middle Ages: 476 (fall of Rome)
- Renaissance: 1406 (Florence conquers Pisa)
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Early Modern Era:
- [Eastern Hemisphere]: 1453 (fall of Constantinople, end of Roman Empire)
- [Western Hemisphere]: 1492 (discovery of America)
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Modern Era
- [USA]: 1776 (declaration of independence)
- [France]: 1789 (French revolution)
- [Latin America]: 1808 (Napoleon invades Spain, de facto start independence colonies)
- [most of Western Europe]: 1815 (Waterloo, Congress of Vienna)
- [Germany, Italy]: 1871 (German and Italian unifications completed)
- [Russia]: 1917 (Russian revolution)
I always assumed 0 A.D.'s work-in-progress-part-one excludes the Archaic period and covers the Classical and Hellenistic periods (regardless of the arbitrary cut-off years) and 0 A.D.'s intended-but-probably-more-realistic-to-be-scrapped-part-two covers the principate and dominate Roman empire and excludes the Byzantine Roman empire.
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Antiquity:
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By the way, could someone remove those obelisks from the Ptolemaic Civil Centre and Military Colony? (Pairs of obelisks were erected only at the most important Ancient Egyptian temples (before 1000 B.C.), not at the average Hellenistic settlement.)
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Well, I typically agree with you, fatherbushido, even if I do not always quite understand what your (cryptic) messages mean
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1 hour ago, Nescio said:
Ideally
is what I wrote directly above that list
37 minutes ago, Sundiata said:Isn't that a little overkill? Siege workshop, archery range, cavalry stables for all civ's: definitely yes!
Different people have different opinions (personally I don't want an archery range, for example). I'm not saying all of those listed have to be buildable in “0 A.D. Empires Ascendant”, however, creating and including them (unused) in the main distribution would certainly be helpful for modders.
In Ancient warfare infantry, cavalry, chariotry, elephantry, camelry, and artillery were all separate branches, organized independently and operated differently, therefore it would make sense to have separate structures for each of them (I already did this in my 0abc mod, hence the need to display more than 24 icons in the gui).
37 minutes ago, Sundiata said:Camels and stables? Close enough for me. How many different camel-units is a single civ going to train anyway?
At least two camel units (archer and spearman), potentially more (supply, cataphract, etc.)
Likewise, if someone would want to extend 0 A.D. into the Archaic period (c. 800-500 BC), e.g. the Assyrians would have at least four chariot units (light/heavy melee/ranged).
Furthermore, the Britons already have a dog kennel and the Carthaginians a distinction between commercial dock and naval shipyard; why only they?
Again, I'm not saying 0 A.D. should use all those buildings; however, at least having the art would be great.
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This seems really promising, many thanks!
The projectile does seem a bit long, though; (Ancient) crossbows shot stones or bolts, but not arrows. Furthermore, the gastraphetes was used exclusively in siege warfare, so maybe you could give the soldier some protection (e.g. leather armour, helmet).
Again, it looks really great already
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Which units are trainable at which structures can be decided at a later stage. Creating new art for structures is far more important (and you're doing a great job); even if not all buildings end up being used in the main game, it doesn't hurt to create more visual actors than strictly necessary (they could be useful in campaigns, mods, or future changes).
Ideally I'd like to see the following structure visual actors for all factions:
- economic dock
- military shipyard
- siege workshop
- barracks
- archery range
- cavalry stables
- chariot stables
- camel stables
- elephant stables
- dog kennels
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Thanks again for your help. I think I'm starting to understand the game session GUI:
However, I still have to figure out a way to solve that techtree GUI problem.
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Thanks again for your quick reply! You're right, there was indeed an earlier error message; after solving the other errors also disappeared. And specifying the rowLength also worked.
However, is it also possible to increase the size of the panel, instead of decreasing the the size of the icons? It looks quite ugly if unit, building, and research icons are not the same size; and making all of them smalling isn't visually pleasing either.
And any recommendations how to solve:
ERROR: "maur" has more structures in phase phase_village than can be supported by the current GUI layout#13, the elephant stables, is not displayed, even though there appears to be enough space:
I've looked at all files in gui/reference/structree/ however, I couldn't find where the maximum of twelve items per row is defined.
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Thank you for your quick reply! I've replaced the occurence of “24” with “60” in the gui/session/selection_panels.js file. It's partially working:
Building icons #25 and #26 are now displayed. Unfortunately it's still limited to eight items per row (how to increase that to e.g. 12?). More annoyingly, I get this error:
ERROR: JavaScript error: gui/session/unit_commands.js line 179 TypeError: Engine.GetGUIObjectByName(...) is undefined hideUnitCommands@gui/session/unit_commands.js:179:3 updateSelectionDetails@gui/session/selection_details.js:475:5 updateGUIObjects@gui/session/session.js:895:2 onSimulationUpdate@gui/session/session.js:824:2 __eventhandler62 (simulationupdate)@sn simulationupdate:0:1 -
Thank you for your helpful replies!
On 18/10/2017 at 5:22 PM, leper said:42. Fix the appropriate gui xml (within gui/session/) to have a higher number for the repeat attribute. You might have to tweak a few sizes since otherwise things are not going to fit. Similar for the structree, except there you have another xml file.
Well, I already tried editing gui/session/selection_panels_right/construction_panel.xml:
Spoiler<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?> <object name="unitConstructionPanel" size="10 12 100% 100%"> <object size="0 0 100% 100%"> <repeat count="60"> <object name="unitConstructionButton[n]" hidden="true" style="iconButton" type="button" size="0 0 30 30" tooltip_style="sessionToolTipBottom"> <object name="unitConstructionIcon[n]" type="image" ghost="true" size="3 3 27 27"/> </object> </repeat> </object> </object>
Unfortunately, this does not allow more icons to be displayed, it only makes them smaller:
I'm at a loss how to remove the 3×8 limit, especially since both cart and ptol have now 26 available structures in my 0abc mod (and I intend to add more).
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0abc updated again:
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Fortresses are now purely defensive structures (cf. towers)
- Siege weapons and -technologies are moved to siege workshops
- Heroes are moved to civil centres
- Elephants are moved to elephant stables
- Champions, unique technologies, and “will to fight” are moved to military halls and occassionally other structures
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Barracks and stables:
- combined barracks: brit, cart, gaul, iber, rome
- combined docks: brit, gaul, iber, maur
- infantry barracks: athen, mace, maur, pers, ptol, sele, spart
- camel stables: ptol
- cavalry stables: athen, mace, maur, pers, ptol, sele, spart
- chariot stables: currently unavailable (generic template and technologies are created already)
- elephant stables: cart, maur, pers, ptol, sele
- military halls: all except brit, iber, rome
- military harbour: cart
- shipyard: athen, cart, mace, rome, pers, ptol, sele, spart
- siege workshop: all
- All factions can construct battering rams in town phase
- New unit: gastraphetes (Macedonian champion crossbowman); art by Alexandermb
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Rearranged a few things in the session GUI:
- detached the minimap from the central panel and moved it to the top right corner
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resized the central panel from 1024px to 960 px (because 960*2=1920 and 960*4=3840)
- left part is 360×240
- middle part is 240×240
- right part is 360×240
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all icons use 32px images, except the single unit selection big icon, which is 64px (because all images are in powers of 2: 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, etc)
- left part can support 8 stances, 25 formations, 5 barter resources, 3 alert bells, 20 garrisoned units (only barter and formations conflict)
- central part can display up to 20 units
- right part can display up to 60 icons
- new, clearer rank icons
- added a different background image for the left and right panels, to make it clear 0abc is loaded
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- Several other minor changes
More details are included in 0abc-readme.pdf
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Fortresses are now purely defensive structures (cf. towers)
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5 hours ago, Servo said:
The foot soldiers promote to maximum at level 4 only. Only champs can promote to maximum level 12.
Once citizen (foot) soldiers reached its level 4 maximum the experience just cycle but don’t level up.
Many thanks for pointing this out! There was indeed a typo in many of the level 4 templates. I've now checked and corrected them all. 0abc is updated again.
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42. The GUI of units (and structures) has a maximum of three rows of eight slots, which means a maximum of 24 structures. This is problematic (e.g. Carthage already has 24 structures in my mod), because I intend to add more structures in the long run.
Also, the Structure Tree does not accept more than twelve structures per phase (and all factions have eleven or twelve different ones in the village phase), nor more than four units per trainer unit.
Any suggestions on how to solve this?
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That shooting range looks really nice! And yes, ranged units were specialists: archery and slinging were skills which require years of practice (boys trained from early childhood); accurately hurling a javelin is much easier and could be learned in weeks or maybe days. On the other hand, non-mercenary melee infantry (especially hoplites) were typically untrained amateurs. (The famous Spartan Agoge training included dancing, singing, sports, chasing hares and clubbing them to death, etc, but not spear fighting or phalanx warfare.)
Furthermore, it's great you're discussing adding cavalry stables and siege workshops. Hopefully you can also create elephant stables for all relevant factions. (And maybe a sacred band barracks (cart) and royal guard barracks (mace, ptol, spart), cf. AoE's Academy.)
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0abc updated (again):
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Heroes are weakened but somewhat cheaper:
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all heroes require 0 population (and are available at all civil centres, starting at village phase)
- healer and infantry heroes cost 100 food, metal, and wood, 30 training time, and have 500 health
- cavalry heroes cost 200 food, metal, and wood, 40 training time, and have 1000 health
- chariot heroes cost 300 food, metal, and wood, 50 training time, and have 1500 health
- war elephant heroes cost 400 food, metal, and wood, 60 training time, and have 2000 health
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all hero bonus damage multipliers are removed; new damage penalties:
- archer infantry and chariot heroes: 0.5× vs elephants
- cavalry heroes: 0.75× vs camels and chariots, 0.5× vs elephants
- war elephant heroes: 0.125× vs structures
- hero armour technology is no longer available; instead, heroes gain +1 crush, hack, and pierce armour level per phase advance
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and:
- Macedonian hero Alexander no longer inflicts bonus damage vs other heroes
- Mauryan hero Maurya has a new global area: elephants have -25% training time
- Persian hero Cyrus can no longer train immortals
- Ptolemian hero Ptolemy I is now a cavalry hero (instead of war elephant)
- Ptolemian hero Ptolemy IV is now a war elephant hero (instead of cavalry)
- Spartan hero Agis has a new local aura: units within 60 m move 15% faster
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all heroes require 0 population (and are available at all civil centres, starting at village phase)
- Battering rams gain +0.2 movement speed per infantry unit garrisoned inside
- (Roman) scorpion is now half as cheap and half as strong as other bolt shooters
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Fourth level cavalry and infantry drill technologies are removed, because the AI doesn't construct wonders
- three levels of war dog drill technologies are available at the Briton kennels
- three levels of war elephant drill technologies are available at the Mauryan elephant stables
- three levels of camelry and chariot drill technologies exist but are currently unavailable
- Civil centres have 0 default arrows, but each phase (village, town, city) there is a technology available which adds one more arrow
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Fortresses can no longer train heroes nor cavalry or infantry champions (only siege weapons and occassionally war elephant or chariot champions)
- Some champions are directly available at the barracks, some require an additional research, some can be trained at special buildings, some exist but are unavailable.
- Greek (Athenian, Macedonian, and Spartan) Royal Stoa can no longer be constructed
- Macedonian siege blacksmith can no longer be constructed
- Mauryan champion infantry maidens can no longer be trained anywhere
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Ptolemean barracks is now an infantry-only barracks
- Ptolemian camel archer can be trained at the market, instead of the barracks
- Ptolemian market is available in village phase, costs 50 food, 100 wood, and has +50% construction time
- Roman army camp is buildable again
- Several other minor changes
As usual, have a look at the 0abc-readme.pdf for more detailed information.
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Heroes are weakened but somewhat cheaper:
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28 minutes ago, serveurix said:
I thought the spartans didn't like walls as a way of defense.
Sparta itself didn't have city walls in Classical times (because they considered it unlikely any enemy would be able to reach it; something similar applied to Principate Rome), nor did they allow other settlements in their territory to construct walls (they were constantly fearful of revolts). However, Spartan colonies (e.g. Taranto) did have massive city walls, and the Spartans themselves repeatedly erected stone walls outside their territory (e.g. at the Corinthian Isthmus or at Thermopylae) to strengthen their control of the battlefield.
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Time frame for 0 A.D.
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by Nescio
ce
Yes, ideally 0.A.D. ought to include the Archaic period (however, improving the game as it is right now is far more important than adding any civilizations). Again, I fully agree with you in general on this. You and I are just nitpicking on minor details.
“Classicists are a nasty breed of people. They are always convinced they are right, they tend to raise problems on minor phrases although no-one else understands why, and they continue arguing for their points long after everyone else is tired of discussing and willing to accept anything.”
I forgot from whom this paraphrased quote is, but I certainly agree it's applicable to me
Perhaps someone could spin this off-topic discussion (starting with your post which feneur quoted earlier) off into a separate “0 A.D. timeframe” thread?