Nescio
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Joined
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Days Won
23
Posts posted by Nescio
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20 minutes ago, m7600 said:
I managed to put 14 on each side without changing the rest of the building.
That's quite close! There are not that many people who count columns, but for those that do, it's a nice detail to get right. Perhaps you can make the courtyard a bit larger and the rooms on the left and right a bit narrower? Compare your top view with the layout posted on an earlier page.
Also, the frontal entrance (not the rest of the portico, nor the second storey) should have two rows of two columns, then the (open) doors, then another row of two columns, and finally the courtyard, giving a nice look-through.
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2 minutes ago, m7600 said:
Ok, how about now? I removed the foot and made it a bit more slender.
The shape looks good enough. I also stumbled upon a bit clearer image of Wikimedia Commons:
Spoiler
I'm not sure you can fit in 16 columns on each side of the central courtyard, but it would be nice to give it a try and see how it looks, if that's not too much trouble.
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4 minutes ago, m7600 said:
@Nescio does this column look Doric to you? I modified the top of one of the game's columns.
No: Ionic etc. have a foot, Doric columns don't. There are also differences in the shape of the shaft and the ridges, but those things are probably too small for use in game.
If you're making a new column specifically for this wonder, then make them smaller (more slender) than the ones used in the temple and current wonder and use more of them in the porticoes. For comparison, the barracks is a much smaller structure but has quite a few (Corinthian) columns. And bonus points if you have three sizes, for the ground level of the frontal portico, for the storey above, and for the central courtyard
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7 minutes ago, hyperion said:I always find those randomly placed props rather odd. A basket in front of a regular house is still ok, but shields and weapons everywhere certainly not. Either you had them close by or they were stored more or less securely.
Yeah, I'm not too fond of them either, but I've seen people complain about undecorated structures being too boring, and random pottery is better than random trees.
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8 minutes ago, m7600 said:
Incidentally, I'm looking at the columns of the Greek civs, none of them seem to be Doric. The Macedonian buildings use Corinthian columns, the Athenians use Ionic columns, Spartans seem to use something similar to Doric but they have a square on top, Seleucids use Corinthian. The Athenian wonder looks somewhat Doric, but it also has a square on top of the column.
Yes, that's correct:
Spoiler
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17 minutes ago, m7600 said:
Anything else?
Yeah: those steps on all sides. It's not a temple. The palace is fundamentally a very large house.
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Thank you for your detailed analysis, it's appreciated!
A few of the things you listed were actually not changed in A24, though. For instance, the Carthaginian and Persian trader bonuses were implemented nine years ago (11349) and the international bonuses five years ago (18108).
What has changed in A24 is that a lot of work has been done on correcting and improving the information displayed in game. As with everything, this job is not finished, 0 A.D. is a result of nearly two decades of work by dozens if not hundreds of people and there will also be things that could and should be improved.
On 12/03/2021 at 10:38 PM, Edwarf said:Lack of Metal:
This is indeed problematic. Part of the problem is expensive technologies (which can be easily changed), part of it is generally poor map design.
On 12/03/2021 at 10:38 PM, Edwarf said:Personal feeling about the future:
I have seen some proposition on the forum about gameplay “innovation” and I feel like it tend to copy similar RTS games such as Age of Empire 2. For exemple the food decay, the scout phase 1, cavalry not able to hunt anymore, stable, siege workshop...
I am a bit sad about that, this game is wonderful and unique. It can be improved with real gameplay innovation such as regenerative fishes, trees and berries. There is no need to copy other archaic games.
-> I hope it is just a feeling.
I fully agree. Age of Empires II is a very popular game, yet that doesn't mean it should be followed blindly. One can look at other games for inspiration, of course, but in the end what's done in 0 A.D. should be what makes sense for 0 A.D., regardless what other games do.
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Not just Celts and Romans, phalloi were everywhere: Greece, Egypt, the Near East, India, Japan, Papua New Guinea etc. It's a fertility symbol and wards off evil.
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Thank you for sharing those screenshots, you made some great progress! The size is great, it's clearly wonder-like
. Some more things, though:
- The columns in your courtyard look Corinthian; they ought to be Doric.
- Could you add the veranda on the north (i.e. right) side?
Spoiler
- There is a problem with a wall:
Spoiler
I also stumbled upon an earlier post written by @Sundiata two years ago: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/25207-hellenistic-royal-courts-valuable/?tab=comments#comment-366920
19 hours ago, m7600 said:Here's a version with some exterior plants and a checkered floor pattern. @Carltonus and @Nescio, I know that you guys said that you didn't want plants on the exterior. But the civic center and the library have some (the CC in the front corners, the library on the sides). So I figured that it could work for the wonder. Also, the CC has a checkered floor pattern, so I incorporated that to the wonder as well. These are just some rough ideas though, nothing is final.
I think that the model could use some steps as well, since most of the Macedonian buildings have them.Most structures in game are essentially fantasy designs and that's perfectly fine; artistic licence etc. However, if and when something is based on a specific building and it is roughly known how it looked like in the past, then it should reflect that closely in 0 A.D. People care about historical accuracy and wonders should showcase the best. Hence why I'm more critical than towards other structures. One doesn't embellish the Eiffel Tower with cherry trees just because it has a boring colour.
Those marble flower beds with tiny trees on the outside corners are a bit nonsense, as are the large marble pedestals in the courtyard. If you want some green, why not put some ivy on the south (i.e. left) wall? As for other decorations, how about some baskets, pottery, and perhaps weapons in the porticoes of the front and the courtyard?
15 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:Trust me, we've wanted to remove them from the CC for years now. The "column" effect is definitely visible in-game and not desirable.
Better to future-proof your hard work and just add a nice block foundation now.
Yes, I fully agree! Use a solid block as a platform to erect the building upon. That also applies to other structures.
5 minutes ago, m7600 said:So, how should I commit this after I finish it? Should I just fork the 0 AD github repo and make a pull request?
Bundle your work in a mod so people can try it out in game and wait for @LordGood or @Stan` to review it; once they're satisfied they'll commit it.
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14 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:
Splitting attack upgrades by infantry and cavalry could be a way to go about it. I feel like specific unit upgrades shouldn't be in the blacksmith but in the Barrack or such buildings.
If a technology affects only cavalry, then I think it should go to the stable, whereas a technology affecting javelineers belongs in the forge, since we have infantry, camel, cavalry, and chariot javelineers. (Perhaps we should introduce elephant javelineers too, though that requires art.)
19 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:I was initially thinking about having two technologies in Town phase, but I don't think it'd be bad to experiment with it being in the Village phase. Maybe with a cost reduction to 150W to make it more accessible.
Well, if the technologies are available in the village phase but the forge stays in the town phase, then usually it's effectively the same. But if players start with a forge in a certain map (e.g. Fortress?) or if one faction can build a forge in the village phase (e.g. Gauls?), then the technologies could be researched earlier.
And yes, the new forge technologies should be cheaper. Perhaps a 1:2:3 ratio?
26 minutes ago, borg- said:I'm fine with 3rd level of upgrade. Would it be interesting to move the forge to the village phase then? This encourages an attack even earlier.
Perhaps, I'm not sure. We could give it a try, of course. However, there are already many structures in the village phase and few in the town and city phase. Maybe the barracks should be postponed to the town phase then?
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Yes, I fully agree the technologies are too expensive, which is why I wrote https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3679 about an hour ago
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6 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:In addition, I believe there should be a 3rd level of upgrades for the blacksmith,
Fine by me. Village phase requirement?
6 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:especially if we stick with just 4 different upgrade types.
That depends on what others want. I myself generally prefer smaller, cheaper technologies, e.g. we could consider splitting ranged attack into one for archers and another for javelineers. Perhaps something for a future patch.
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1 hour ago, Angen said:
aren't Phase advances notifications already in game?
Only partially: observers get notified whenever any player has advanced to a new phase; players only when they do themselves or an ally (with shared vision technology), but not for other players.
If there are notifications for wonders (“X started building a Wonder.”, “X completed a Wonder.”, “X's Wonder has been destroyed.”), then there should also be similar notifications for phases (“Y started advancing towards the Town Phase.”, “Y cancelled advancing to the Town Phase.”, “Y has advanced to the Town Phase.”). And also notify players whenever a relic changes hands (“Z now has 3 catafalques.”).
While I'd like to have these notifications for all players by default, I think there should be a game set-up setting to opt out (cf. “Disable Spies”).
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5 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
Right. A masonry/stone platform would be good underneath. The Athenian wonder needs one too (Parthenon), as it currently floats over hills.
Actually the Athenians need an entirely new wonder (the Parthenon). The actor they're using right now is the temple of Zeus at Olympia. Something for a future task.
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Ideally I'd like to see each wonder give an unique bonus.
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48 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
I feel like the game could use more event notifications. Possible options:
"Enemy sighted!" includes a minimap flare
"{playerName} has started building a Wonder."
"{playerName} has finished building a Wonder!"
Any other possibilities?
Yes, please! Also for phase advances.
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29 minutes ago, Grapjas said:
Expand vision to support units of the player you selected to bribe.
27 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:Keep as is, just expand bribable units to all support units, not just traders
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A25 commits affecting gameplay or balance:
- 25135: Remove the attack from wall turrets.
- 25134: Increase gather rate technology effects / revert rP24719.
- 25133: Exclude Towers from Town->City phase requirements.
- 25132: Unlock the Iberian monument in Town Phase.
- 25131: Change 'Archery Tradition' tech to an attack range increase.
- 25130: Unify the resistance of foundations.
- 25129: Reduce cavalry training time and increase movement speed for ranged cavalry.
- 25128: Remove then entity limit for the Embassy.
- 25123: Technically seperate Turrets from GarrisonHolder.
- 25092: Fix fishing boats hunting whale.
- 25058: Streamline ship stats.
- 25057: Lower cavalry melee attack range again.
- 25055: Fix siege_attack tech not affecting Maurya.
- 25000: Search for resources near a current location before the init-pos.
- 24973: Let domestic animals flee when attacked.
- 24972: Fix Iberian starting walls on Skirmish maps.
- 24953: Unify UnitAI and AnimalAI.
See also https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Alpha25#Gameplay
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Currently open gameplay patches:
- D3868: Fish and fruit regeneration.
- D3687: Remove worker elephant from civic centre.
- D3853: Don't chase when there are still targets around.
- D3811: Use subunits for the Ptol supersized ship.
- D3810: Differentiating britons part 1.
- D3781: +5 pierce resistance for artillery.
- D3779: Unify wood gather rates.
- D3778: Remove fortress and tower entity limits.
- D3777: Limit the number of domestic animals.
- D3776: Increase vision of support units.
- D3762: Clean up wall templates a bit.
- D3758: Differentiate movement speeds of ranged cavalry.
- D3757: Unify pierce resistance of defensive structures.
- D3756: Unify resistances of non-buildable structures.
- D3755: +2 pierce resistance for javelineers.
- D3743: Differentiate crossbowmen.
- D3738: Athen elite hoplite can promote to champion hoplite.
- D3736: Tweak archer spread and add technology.
- D3735: Differentiate camels.
- D3727: Differentiating athens: democracy.
- D3708: Make animals invisible in FoW.
- D3704: Cheaper economic technologies.
- D3699: Change mercenaries again.
- D3698: Make colonization tech more most useful.
- D3697: Make merchant ships less profitable.
- D3693: Improve merchant ships.
- D3691: Add stable to fortress map.
- D3688: hoplite_tradition tech.
- D3684: Tweak ram attack classes again.
- D3681: Standardize animal loot experience.
- D3680: Tweak will to fight technology costs.
- D3679: Lower forge technology costs.
- D3675: Athenian bonus - cheaper technologies.
- D3674: No whaling.
- D3672: Raise archer reload time.
- D3668: Unify damage of arrow-shooting structures.
- D3665: Decrease metal cost for mercenaries.
- D3602: Tweak theatre aura.
- D3601: Lower city phase territory increase.
- D3599: Tweak elephant archer again.
- D3597: Allow training starting units at any civic centre.
- D3565: Make all support units bribable.
- D3563: Make theater cheaper.
- D3528: Bring turnRate back to realism.
- D3523: Bring projectile speeds to realistic values.
- D3488: Lower unit movement speed.
- D3486: Lower soldier vision range.
- D3466: Make wall turrets upgrade into proper towers.
- D3417: Balance pike again.
- D3416: Fix unlock shared dropsites requirement.
- D3407: Add food/researchtime cost to reformed_army / traditional_army.
- D3392: New kush civ bonus.
- D3390: New cart market civ bonus.
- D3377: Enable cart basic infantry javelineer.
- D3341: Move some trainable animals to higher phases.
- D3319: Differentiate rams.
- D3246: Increase advanced and elite and lower champion ranged attack damage.
- D2988: Replace corral technology.
- D2965: Separate chariot templates.
- D2900: Separate camels from cavalry templates.
- D2854: Introduce centre tech progression.
- D2845: Change phase bonuses.
- D2769: Add visible garrison points to wall towers.
- D2648: Make Caratacos and Maximus auras local.
- D2535: Remove pop cap civ bonuses.
- D2508: Prevent ships and siege engines from attacking fields.
- D2506: Allow building fields in neutral territory.
- D2477: Garrison units on short wall segments.
- D1997: Make animal corpses visible in FoW / Make resource entities keep their visibility when converted to resources.
- D1400: Hero aura revision.
- D1351: Reduce cavalry gather rate.
- D904: Themistocle aura 1 modify.
- D497: Allow hunting aggressive and violent wild animals.
- D76: Revisit Vision (and Ranged Attack) ranges.
Abandoned:
Spoiler-
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A24 was released a few weeks ago and development of A25 started with 24939. The purpose of this thread is to keep track of what patches that affect gameplay or balance are proposed or committed for the next release (A25), as this thread did for the previous (A24).
Please refrain from discussing individual patches here. The correct place for that is on Phabricator ( https://code.wildfiregames.com/ ). Each entry (below) has a link to the relevant page.
All open gameplay patches can also be found with https://code.wildfiregames.com/search/query/MwAW9pins9Vt/
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Keep in mind modifications stack (like compound interest); if technologies have the same relative gain, the absolute gain increases exponentially:
with 0 technologies: 1.2^0 = 1 with 1 technology: 1.2^1 = 1.2 i.e. +0.2 with 2 technologies: 1.2^2 = 1.44 i.e. +0.24 with 3 technologies: 1.2^3 = 1.728 i.e. +0.288
Moreover, those are the rates per worker; players tend to have few gatherers at game start and more units and a better economy in late game, therefore the total effect is greater, which is why later technologies are more expensive.
Technology costs can be changed, of course (I also think forge technologies are a bit expensive).
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2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
{civ}/support_female_citizen -> {civ}/support_citizen
Thank you for the clarification. That could be done with a sed one-liner.
19 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:The only civ that keeps Female Citizens is Sparta in this mod.
You can do whatever you like in your Delenda Est mod, but if it's to be included in the public repository, then art should exist for all civilizations, including Sparta.
Also, I suspect you don't need that template_unit_support_citizen_female.xml at all; just including the following line in your Spartan file ought to be enough:
<Phenotype datatype="tokens">-male</Phenotype>
or perhaps:
<Phenotype replace="">female</Phenotype>
(I didn't test, though.)
I'll have a more critical look later
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Why the map files? What did you change?
balancing defensive structures test mod
in Gameplay Discussion
Posted
Forum discussions are nice and all, and there is certainly no shortage of good ideas, however, what matters is how things work out in game. Because using the development version and applying patches is challenging for many, I've decided to bundle several related patches proposed for A25 as a mod for A24. Their purpose is to address the frequent complaint that defensive structures are too effective in A24 and therefore attacking is too difficult. The eight patches included here are:
I sincerely believe each of them is an improvement on its own and also that they work nicely in combination with each other. Nevertheless, I'm biased by my own ideas and different people may have different opinions, of course. Hence this mod, to broaden the audience and have more people play and test. Feedback is appreciated, especially from people who've played at least several games with it.
Anyway, here it is:
balancing_defensive_structures.zip
I've also uploaded it to mod.io to make it available via the in-game mod downloader, but I'm not sure it's working (@Itms?): https://0ad.mod.io/balancing-defensive-structures