Finchj

I like this proposal a lot. I think battalions make a lot of sense and I really like the emphasis on formations. Working formations are absolutely essential to a "finished" game IMHO. A few thoughts: Military buildings: I say have ground troops from barracks (ranged and melee) and cavalry from stables. No need for an archery range, IMO. If one feels ranged units need something else, what about adding the proposals like "ranged units are unlocked from the barracks after "fletching" or "missile building" techs are researched from the blacksmith." Military unit training: since citizen soldier battalions do not gather resources, is it possible that they could be "tasked" to train and gain experience without fighting? They could lose some stamina (if implemented) or HP in the process so that it isn't as if they level up for free. Capital Phase: is this automatic too? Seems like since it costs significant resources, it should be the one phase upgrade that the player must click. Trading: What about trading with the economic docks? So markets, CC, and docks for land based traders. Lastly, a concept that I think is sorely missing, but probably too hard to implement well, is logistics. Supplying armies in the field with food, water, and coin. All the primary sources I've read from the Hellenistic era constantly talk about the need to supply troops and how this would make or break a campaign. You think of Xerxes sending his advance troops to make supply depots along the coast of Greece, the Athenians gathering lumber and supplies in Italy for their expedition to Sicily, and the importance of Alexander taking Darius' royal tent, his family, and baggage train at Issus.

Every civ should have a hero that's useful in multiplayer, IMO. I think Iphicrates' formation bonus should be changed to an aura like other heroes, not a formation buff. At least until formations are implemented in full. Themistocles' bonus is sometimes useful and Pericles' building speed bonus isn't exactly desirable by the time you get to City phase. I also think at least one Iberian hero should receive a simple aura like + attack or speed simply to give them a boost late game while their intended bonuses are worked out over time. Same with Mauryans, currently their heroes don't have a viable aura.

This should get you going: Athens: The owl has a longstanding association with Athena and Athenian silver coins almost always bore that mark. I think its a good choice. Persia: Their emblem appears to be a modified faravahar, a depiction of the Zoroastrian concept of spirit and represents good thoughts, words, and deeds. Macedon: Looks like the Vergina Sun, which is associated with Argead dynasty. Ptolemies: "Eagle of Zeus," see @Lion.Kanzen's post here. Carthage: Symbol of the goddess Tanit, minus the crescent moon. She was the patron goddess of Carthage. Seleucids: The anchor appears to be some dynastic propaganda story to link Seleucus I Nicator to divine origins (Apollo).

There is evidence for efforts by Ptolemaic Egypt to start plantations of forests, they even had government owned nurseries for starting trees. There are lots of old laws governing forests, land ownership, etc from other cultures too. But generally, no real reforestation efforts for most of the civs we have, true. Its actually interesting that @Servo walls off trees; there is extensive evidence for sacred groves and places that, often, were walled. That and private paradises for the Persians and later Roman elite. Planting of trees would be interesting, but I don't think it would be a good addition to the main game. Maybe a mod that leans towards longer games.

There's been talk in other threads about being able to replant trees. It would need testing. Deforestation during the timeframe of the game is historically attested from both ancient sources directly as well as archeological evidence. Deforestation occurred across the Middle East, the Mediterranean, and even into the British Isles.

The tier idea would need more fleshing out, which is more work, and possibly a real headache to actually balance in the end. I do like the permanent death idea too, though I'd want to see it paired with rebalancing of heroes (at a minimum giving Iberians some temporary bonuses).

I think thats why the second option is better. By putting some kind of limitation on retraining, players are forced to care more about heroes. Currently we have heroes that can even be sacrificed when low on health because the "only" consequence of losing one is the retrain time. Still, I don't think it is a good idea to go to the other end of the spectrum and say that once a hero is dead, the hero is dead. Maybe it is a bit silly using historical figures as heroes if they can come back from the grave, but I think finding a space in the middle between "who cares if my hero dies" and "I better protect my hero from any harm else I lose the aura forever" makes more sense. A timer preventing you from retraining the hero for a certain period of time, plus increasing costs per "resurrection" makes a lot of sense to me. ___ This is just something to think about, I'm sure it isn't new either: One could even grade the heroes for each civ in order to guide balancing: The lower tier hero is cheapest, has a lower retrain cool down time, and has a global aura. Global auras can be kept at a lower strength simply because they are always on, everywhere. The middle tier hero could be like the best heroes we have now, but weakened a bit. So instead of +5 attack, for example, it goes to +2 and is a proximity aura that is always on. The highest tier hero would be quite expensive, but have multiple auras that have timers, more like Warcraft 3 or something. They could be things like +10 attack for 30 seconds, -20% building capture points for 10 seconds, +50% healing rate for 30 seconds... things that if timed right could change the course of a battle or help your army keep moving after a battle. *Note: low middle and high denote the amount of micromanagement necessary to gain the most benefit from the hero. Also, there should be some consequence for a hero being mounted or on foot. I do like that each hero is supposed to represent something unique that they remain known for for 2000+ years later. I think each civ could have unique hero attributes even with this grading system. For instance, Athens could be: Pericles, low. Lower temple cost, construction bonus, economic gathering rate bonus (or) barracks train speed bonus (Funeral oration inspiring citizens to fight on). Themistocles, middle. Lower ship training time, increased ship speed, +2 attack constant aura Iphicrates, high. Increased armor +1 or +2 constant aura. Auras with timers: Increased unit speed +25% that lasts maybe 30s; -10% enemy unit health for 15s (rumor of Iphicrates' "tactical cruise" to Corcyra led the Spartans to break off their siege before his highly trained and well drilled fleet even arrived)

I like #1 if and only if all heroes receive a thorough overview and balance. #2 is more feasible and I've thought of it too. A timer would be nice, something like 2 minutes before you can begin to train the same hero. Maybe even increase the cost per death and/or increase the length of a timer too.

Loki1950, quotations are often used around single words to demonstrate a loose use of the word. If you read my initial post in this thread, it is pretty clear that I don't intend for actual mining of metal from the ocean. Using the word "mine" to describe harvesting/gathering from water based resources works because the function in game is directly analogous to mining ore deposits on land. A unit that has the ability to "mine" goes to the node, works at a certain rate that can be modified via techs, bonuses, auras, then automatically returns to a drop off point and metal is deposited. Since the only difference is language, putting the term mine in quotations references their similarity while also indicating that the term isn't quite right, as one can see from the previous sentence where I did use the word harvest, but without quotations.

It fleshes out Lion's idea about cash plantations. Basically the same as a farm with a different texture that generates metal. These plantation's wouldn't create new resources- "apples" or "cotton" would simply be textures the same way certain biomes have different trees and animals. I think having an alternative method to generate metal late game besides running trade carts would be nice, but the idea needs balancing since creating towns that can never run out of food or metal might be annoying if one plays with walls. At any rate, it simply offers an idea as to what those cash crop farms would look like in game. It would be much easier to distinguish them from regular farms this way. Having the ability to harvest metal from ocean sources would add depth to gameplay on naval maps. There would be greater emphasis on building ships and controlling the sea if one could "mine" metal from the ocean. I think both of these ideas add a dimension to the game that could be pushed even further, maybe the plantations could offer a trading bonus. Different civs could also gain bonuses for these things; Carthage for instance might gain a civ bonus for gathering metal from sea sources. Ptolomies could be even better at plantation gathering.

Two ideas for that: 1) Give each civ, or groups of civs, two/three plantations that visually grow something different, but function the same, for appearances (like varying farm textures), based on something they were known for (like vineyards and olives). So when you click the plantation build icon, it randomly selects from one of the crops. 2) Assign a set of random plantations to each biome. That way we don't wind up with Persians planting date palms on a snow map or Gauls growing apples in the Sahara. Here's a list of "cash crops" that I'll group both ways: Mediterranean (Athens, Sparta, Macedon, Rome, Iberia, Carthage): Olives Grape Vines (note, grapes were often grown up trees like olives or even Elm (Ulmus) trees that were kept small) Figs Desert (Persia, Seleucids, Ptolemies): Date Palms Pomegranates Lemons South Asian (Mauryans): Cotton Sugarcane Black Pepper Temperate (Gauls, Britons): Apples Hemp Barley All biomes: Honey Bees (could have an aura boosting food and metal production from farms/plantations) Edit: this could be an upgrade/tech that gives a visual change once researched so we don't add another building. One additional idea: allow for metal gathering from water too. Some of these might work better as civ specific abilities. Stationary nodes: Clams (pearls) Sea snails (purple dye) Sponges Oysters Migratory nodes: Whales Seals Sea Turtles Sturgeon Note: initially harvested by fishing boats only, but could have a tech that allows trading boats to harvest them- the bonus there being they can carry more Shoreline buildings that must be garrisoned with either citizen soldiers or traders: Tuna (Iberian almadraba) "Salt mine" (Britons, Gauls) Fish farm (Rome, goatfish production for banquets=luxury item) Lastly, just continuing with the marine theme, but for food: allow hunting and fishing of shoreline creatures. Ptolemies could get some bonuses here. Hunting: Ducks Geese Fishing: Eels Small fish (cast nets) Crabs (One last edit: also would be nice if fishing boats could build fish traps like in AOE2)

Oh, but they do. Human activity was depleting many of these resources, and quite severely, even in ancient times. Besides archeological evidence, contemporary sources even mention the environmental damage. Just one example of this would be the rise of Macedon through its trade in timber with Athens in particular. By the time of Alexander, much of Attica was deforested, with the accompanying erosion, drying of springs, and declining agricultural production. The building of the first Athenian fleets and charcoal production to keep the mines of Laurion in operation had wrecked Attica. When you combine deforestation with a climate that only receives rainfall during a small period of the year, you don't get regeneration, you get desertification. Even today the Greek government struggles to plant forests in many areas of Greece. Macedon, on the other hand, had access to larger forests and much of that territory was higher in elevation and received more rainfall. They happily traded timber to the more established, dominant Greek states while consolidating their control over that region of Greece. Of course, one can't lay the rise of Macedon entirely at the feet of environmental damage by other Greek states, but it played quite a large role. There are a few books on the subject, for example Environmental Problems of the Greeks and Romans: Ecology in the Ancient Mediterranean by J. Donald Hughes is a good place to start if you are interested (for the record, I studied classical Greece at the university). If one wants realism in the economy of the game, then each biome would need to behave by different rules. I think this would be needlessly complicated and confusing for people to remember. Also, the game doesn't have any passage of time. We already have to suspend belief that you can plant a farm and start harvesting in minutes... I think that planting trees is a neat idea, but growing usable timber in the context of a game that lasts about 30-45 minutes is something else. Don't get me wrong, many of these ideas are great, but are more suited to a mod. The game would be totally different than it is today. Personally, I'd love an Anno 1602 meets 0AD, but I don't see it happening officially. Edit: For what its worth, some of these ideas could be implemented in some fashion and could help diversify gameplay or enjoyment, like animated buildings or Lion's suggestion to have "cash crop" plantations to generate coin.

Woohoo! Great job, this Alpha changes quite a bit and has been fun so far in SVN. Hope to find time to play online soon

I almost never build non champion sword cav, but very often build regular spear cav when they are available. It all depends on your opponent, but in many games the spear cav are very useful for raiding even later in a game, since they are very cheap and tough enough. Early game, they can be well worth the investment. One does need to scout to decide whether to use them early on, of course, which means I rarely make them too soon unless there is plentiful hunting. I think the upcoming changes to champs in general will make them more useful since the "class difference" between citizen soldiers and champions will narrow a bit.

According to the structure tree, they all have a 5 gather rate for food. Persian chariots are probably the best for hunting wild animals as they have a carrying capacity of 50.