Differentiating Civilizations: Sparta

[Fabius]

On 07/07/2022 at 3:18 AM, borg- said:

They are barefoot and without armor, just their shield and spear. Its power is equal to a hoplite citizen, but with 100 health. Training time of 12 seconds. Requires 120 xp to be a traditional champion (nivel 2) as we know it

Did you mean 200 health as citizens are already 100 health

[Phalanx]

On 26/06/2022 at 4:40 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I would say that gameplay can become confusing when civs are very different (this seems to be one common complaint about AOE4)

I really like all these ideas (I know I haven't had a presence in a while, college is busy) I just want to play devils advocate against this way of thinking.

A lot of the people making this complaint are from AOE2, where most civs play more or less identically, even when it doesn't really make sense.

Its a double edged sword, like most design choices. Making civs follow a stricter common layout like aoe II does make trying to news and exploring easier for new players. However, after a time, all the factions just blend together into sameness and the game can loose its charm, as a lot of players are motivated by learning to play games well, and once you are there in aoe2, there is little more to hold your attention (which is why the latest AOE2 dlc factions have been straining those common layouts as much as the devs dare without annoying their famously fastidious fans)

The counter side, like AOE4, AOE3, or AOM; Makes civs that differ more from each other can make it harder for newer players to expand and learn the various factions, because different factions play differently.  However, it can keep players on their toes as they play, as the differences in different factions can ellicit different responses from the player depending on the matchup. It can also keep older players engaged, since it takes longer to master each faction.

 

I know it was a little tangent for this thread, but since the thought came up I felt like here would be a good place to mention it.  I think the women and helot dynamic was a very interesting design choice, like others in this thread.

I mostly just wanted to say that we shouldn't be afraid of making each faction unique, especially if it expands the historical basis of this game, which it prides itself on

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Assuming we make a version of the community mod for a27, I will request to merge a branch for @borg-'s sparta ideas. I left out the two kings idea because of regicide issues and also 1 hero seems like a good thing to hold constant across civs.

As for the champions, I think access to spartan hoplites in p1 is a must as this seems like part of the spartan identity. The current model implemented as a civ bonus is the following:

Champion hoplites may be trained in p1 from the syssition, cost double population and half resources.

This is a nice idea but my concerns are that they will become unhelpful later in the game by taking up lots of population, and that deviating from the 1 pop per soldier is introducing too great of an inconsistency. So, I thought of an alternative to the current model that would allow hoplites to be trained in p1, but retain their usefulness over time:

Champion hoplites may be trained in p1 from the syssition with a universal -25% discount of all resources and costing 1 pop. However, their train time compensates for this discount: +50% train time.

Note that a train time of 30 seconds means it will take almost a minute to train a batch of 2. Importantly, the +50% train time becomes less of an issue in the late game as the spartan player may build more syssitions. It may also be necessary then to add a limit to the number of syssitions available, perhaps 5.

Edited February 19, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Fabius]

50 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Assuming we make a version of the community mod for a27, I will request to merge a branch for @borg-'s sparta ideas. I left out the two kings idea because of regicide issues and also 1 hero seems like a good thing to hold constant across civs.

As for the champions, I think access to spartan hoplites in p1 is a must as this seems like part of the spartan identity. The current model implemented as a civ bonus is the following:

Champion hoplites may be trained in p1 from the syssition, cost double population and half resources.

This is a nice idea but my concerns are that they will become unhelpful later in the game by taking up lots of population, and that deviating from the 1 pop per soldier is introducing too great of an inconsistency. So, I thought of an alternative to the current model that would allow hoplites to be trained in p1, but retain their usefulness over time:

Champion hoplites may be trained in p1 from the syssition with a universal -25% discount of all resources and costing 1 pop. However, their train time compensates for this discount: +50% train time.

Note that a train time of 30 seconds means it will take almost a minute to train a batch of 2. Importantly, the +50% train time becomes less of an issue in the late game as the spartan player may build more syssitions. It may also be necessary then to add a limit to the number of syssitions available, perhaps 5.

why not instead add a bonus for phasing to second and third age that reduces the training time of Spartan Hoplites back to their normal time of 20s, or even make them train faster in third phase?

[Fabius]

1 minute ago, Fabius said:

why not instead add a bonus for phasing to second and third age that reduces the training time of Spartan Hoplites back to their normal time of 20s, or even make them train faster in third phase?

so phase 1 would be 30s 

Phase 2 could be 20s

Phase 3 could be 15s

[real_tabasco_sauce]

39 minutes ago, Fabius said:

Hoplites back to their normal time of 20s

I considered this, but I decided on the flat +50% train time because this would be a flat upgrade compared to normal champions. Too many strengths without tradeoffs will be OP. Remember that these units promote to olympic champions (even stronger unit) with xp from fighting, so allowing them to be cheaper and train faster in the late game would be OP for sure.

The nice thing is that if they prove to be weak, this civ bonus can be easily fine tuned between community mod releases.

Edited February 19, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Fabius]

14 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I considered this, but I decided on the flat +50% train time because this would be a flat upgrade compared to normal champions. Too many strengths without tradeoffs will be OP. Remember that these units promote to olympic champions (even stronger unit) with xp from fighting, so allowing them to be cheaper and train faster in the late game would be OP for sure.

The nice thing is that if they prove to be weak, this civ bonus can be easily fine tuned between community mod releases.

Ah I see, well one can only test and see how things play out