The Doric (Greek) Thread

[jorellaf 11]

Own my mistak', an' start a'thing ower again, gin I was God. Wrong Doric.

I'll be collecting here the Doric (specifically, Laconian) equivalents for the building (and later, units) for the Sparta faction. Laconian is Doric Greek, along with Cretan, Corinthian, Megaraean, etc., which itself is part of the West Greek dialects, along with North-West Greek. I will be mainly using Buck (1909), Introduction to the Study of the Greek Dialects: Grammar, Selected Inscriptions, Glossary and maybe Jeffery (1963), The Local Scripts of Archaic Greece: A Study of the Origin of the Greek Alphabet and its Development from the Eighth to the Fifth Centuries B.C., as well as the LSJ.
The Doric dialects often retain the digamma (Ϝϝ) until late, pronounced /w/. I will transliterate them as w, as per the ALA-LC Romani(s)ation Table of Greek, which is listed in the 0 A.D. ground rules for Greek as a source. Since the heroes for Sparta are either 5th century, or early 4th, I will assume the dialect (and ortography) to be from around the same time.
I will write circumflexes (^) for long vowels since it's easier than macrons, but these should be macrons in-game, though I wouldn't mind a tip about how to type them easier. Long a is not part of the romanisation, but I will write them as â regardless, in clase clarity is needed for later.

Buildings

• Civic Centre
  Suggestion: unchanged; Agora [Ἀγορά]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• House
  Suggestion: (W/B)Oikos [(Ϝ/Β)Οἶκος]
  Justification: TBA.
• Apothêkê
  Suggestion: Apothêkâ [Ἀποθήκᾱ]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Farmstead
  Suggestion: unchanged; Epoikion [Ἐποίκιον]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Field
  Suggestion: unchanged; Agros [Ἀγρός]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Corral
  Suggestion: unchanged; Epaulos [Ἔπαυλος], or Mandrâ [Μάνδρᾱ], or Ostrimon [Ὄστριμον] (applies to other Greeks too)
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Harbour
  Suggestion: unchanged; Limên [Λιμήν]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Barracks
  Suggestion: unchanged; Stratopedon [Στρατόπεδον]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Stable
  Suggestion: unchanged; Hippôn [Ἱππών]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Lookout
  Suggestion: unchanged; Prophylagma [Προφύλαγμα]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Sentry & Stone Tower
  Suggestion: unchanged; Pyrgidion [Πυργἰδιον] & Pyrgion [Πύργος]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Palisade
  Suggestion: Charax [Χἀραξ], or Skolops [Σκόλοψ] (applies to other Greeks too)
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Blacksmith
  Suggestion: unchanged; Chalkeôn [Χαλκεὠν]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Temple
  Suggestion: unchanged; Naos [Ναός], but maybe change Attic to Neôs [Νεώς]
  Justification: TBA. Buck 54.f.
   
• Market
  Suggestion: unchanged; Emporion [Ἐμπόριον]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Arsenal
  Suggestion: Hoplothêkâ [Ὁπλοθήκᾱ]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Fortress
  Suggestion: Phrôrion [Φρώριον]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Theatre
  Suggestion: unchanged; Theatron [Θέατρον]
  Justification: TBA.
   
• Wonder
  Suggestion: (H)Iaron tâs Artami(t/d)os (W/B)Orth(i/e)as [Ἱ/Ἰαρὀν τᾶς Ἀρταμί(τ/δ)ος (Ϝ/Β)Ὀρθ(ί/έ)ας]
  Justification: TBA. Buck, Laconic inscr. 70-73.
   
• Military Mess Hall
  Suggestion: unchanged; Syssition [Συσσίτιον]
  Justification: TBA.

Edited February 21 by jorellaf

[Nescio 1.525]

Could you provide the (polytonic) Greek too? Some people can read it and it makes it easier to spot tiny mistakes. And also list the entity template names (e.g. house), it'll help when writing a mod or patch.

As for using Doric Greek in 0 A.D., I'm not necessarily against, however, I have some concerns:

• It may make players wonder the specific name of a Spartan entity is occassionally spelled differently than its Athenian equivalent, though that's not necessarily a bad thing.
• Furthermore, consistency matters. Doric was also spoken on e.g. Crete; in 0 A.D. the Athenians can recruit Cretan mercenaries; should their specific name be in Doric or Attic then? And should Aeolic/Boeotian be used for Theban units?
• The bulk of the Greek corpus is in Attic; having other dialects necessitates using reconstructed rather than attested forms.

11 hours ago, jorellaf said:

though I wouldn't mind a tip about how to type them easier.

It depends on the keyboard setting you're using. The default US English has only two levels (without and with Shift), but switching to e.g. international adds two more, with AltGr (the key to the right of the Space bar). On my end (Gnome) I can type the macron with:

• AltGr+Shift+3 on the “English (intl., with AltGr dead keys)” keyboard
• AltGr+Shift+[ on the “Greek” keyboard

They might have different locations (and keyboard names) on your operating system.

11 hours ago, jorellaf said:

Long a is not part of the romanisation, but I will write them as â regardless

Great! Vowel length is important.

[Genava55 1.204]

If I recall correctly.

 

[jorellaf 11]

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

It may make players wonder the specific name of a Spartan entity is occassionally spelled differently than its Athenian equivalent, though that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I'd say that's a good thing! Mild confusion can easily lead to learning.

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Furthermore, consistency matters. Doric was also spoken on e.g. Crete; in 0 A.D. the Athenians can recruit Cretan mercenaries; should their specific name be in Doric or Attic then? And should Aeolic/Boeotian be used for Theban units?

I think to avoid any headaches, we basically make the names from the point of view of the faction. Athenians will call things by their names in Attic, Spartans, by their names in Doric. Even though that would remove any Petthalian dialect from the game, my personal favourite .

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

The bulk of the Greek corpus is in Attic; having other dialects necessitates using reconstructed rather than attested forms.

I understand where you're coming from, but this is a bit too strict in my view, especially in regards to Doric, which is very conservative in comparison to East Greek. Most changes found in the Attic and Ionian dialects are very regular, and very particular to those. The main changes would be ᾱ>η, ô>ου vs Doric ô>ω, σσ>ττ, verbal stuff which is not needed here, and phonology. In these cases, the odd ones are Attic and Ionic, and most other dialects would preserve the original forms. This means recreating a non-Attic equivalent would be very easy, and doubtfully incorrect, even if we don't have literary attestations (even then, some Attic Greek words are attested only a handful of times sometimes, as you probably know). However, I will still try to be as thorough as possible and justify all changes as clearly as possible. As you can see, serendipitously, they're not that many.

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

On my end (Gnome) I can type the macron with:

That's a Linux only feature. Windows is dumb and doesn't do that. Maybe I'll set up an autohotkey.

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Could you provide the (polytonic) Greek too? Some people can read it and it makes it easier to spot tiny mistakes. And also list the entity template names (e.g. house), it'll help when writing a mod or patch.

Will make changes. Thanks for the feedback!

Quote

If I recall correctly.

Thanks! will help when I move on to units.

Edited February 21 by jorellaf

[Nescio 1.525]

20 minutes ago, jorellaf said:

I think to avoid any headaches, we basically make the names from the point of few of the faction. Athenians will call things by their names in Attic, Spartans, by their names in Doric. Even though that would remove any Petthalian dialect from the game, my personal favourite .

That would work for the current situation, though if at some point mercenaries are made civilization-independent, we'll re-encounter that headache. Anyway, something to worry about then and there.

28 minutes ago, jorellaf said:

I understand where you're coming from, but this is a bit too strict in my view, especially in regards to Doric, which is very conservative in comparison to East Greek. Most changes found in the Attic and Ionian dialects are very regular, and very particular to those. The main changes would be ᾱ>η, ô>ου vs Doric ô>ω, σσ>ττ, verbal stuff which is not needed here, and phonology. In these cases, the odd ones are Attic and Ionic, and most other dialects would preserve the original forms. This means recreating a non-Attic equivalent would be very easy, and doubtfully incorrect, even if we don't have literary attestations (even then, some Attic Greek words are attested only a handful of times sometimes, as you probably know). However, I will still try to be as thorough as possible and justify all changes as clearly as possible. As you can see, serendipitously, they're not that many.

It's not just the different sound changes I'm worried about, that part is fairly certain (at least for Doric), however, there is also vocabulary, e.g. Doric has κέστερ, Attic νεανίας ‘young man’. A dialect is more than just a respelling.

Likewise, when converting British English to American English, changing centre and colour to center and color is the easy part, but maize vs corn is harder to spot. And English variants are very similar to each other, much less so e.g. Luxembourgish or Swiss German vs Standard High German, or Tsakonian vs Modern Greek.

21 minutes ago, jorellaf said:

That's a Linux only feature. Windows is dumb and doesn't do that. Maybe I'll set up an autohotkey.

Yes, Linux makes a lot of things much easier. Nevertheless, surely Windows must have an option to choose a different keyboard? If switching from English to Spanish is possible, or from QWERTY to DVORAK, then it should be possible to use a layout with AltGr?

[jorellaf 11]

21 minutes ago, Nescio said:

It's not just the different sound changes I'm worried about, that part is fairly certain (at least for Doric), however, there is also vocabulary, e.g. Doric has κέστερ, Attic νεανίας ‘young man’. A dialect is more than just a respelling.

Ah I see what you mean. I will do due dilligence as best as I can for that as well when that comes up, probably with the units, rather than buildings.

Case in point, I found the word ἀβήρ (ἀϝήρ), which, according to Hesychius, is οἴκημα στοὰς ἔχον, ταμεῖον Λάκωνες, i.e. 'room/chamber having a colonnade(?), Laconian(nom/voc.pl!) ταμεῖον (treasury, magazine, storehouse, store-room, reservoir)'. But the LSJ and other dictionaries put it as the Doric of ἀήρ (air), so I wasn't sure if I should put it or not, though I will write more for it there.

21 minutes ago, Nescio said:

If switching from English to Spanish is possible, or from QWERTY to DVORAK, then it should be possible to use a layout with AltGr?

I use like 9 keyboards already, from Phoenician to Polytonic Greek. Don't want to add Latvian or Māori for the macrons alone!

Edited February 21 by jorellaf

[Nescio 1.525]

By the way, don't forget some technologies have specific names too:

[technologies]$ grep spart *
agoge.json:			{ "civ": "spart" }
attack_soldiers_will.json:		"spart": "Dynamis"
grep: civbonuses: Is a directory
gather_mining_serfs.json:		"spart": "Heilōtes"
gather_mining_servants.json:		"spart": "Douloi"
gather_mining_slaves.json:		"spart": "Andrapoda"
heal_range.json:		"spart": "Olympic Pantheon"
heal_rate_2.json:		"spart": "Hippocratic Oath"
heal_rate.json:		"spart": "Sphagia"
phase_city_generic.json:		"spart": "Megalopolis"
phase_town_generic.json:		"spart": "Kōmopolis"
pop_house_01.json:		"spart": "Peristylon"
soldier_attack_melee_01.json:		"spart": "Xiphos"
soldier_resistance_hack_01.json:		"spart": "Spolas"
soldier_resistance_hack_02.json:		"spart": "Linothōrax"
tower_watch.json:		"spart": "Nyktophylakes"
unlock_champion_cavalry.json:			{ "notciv": "spart" }
unlock_champion_infantry.json:			{ "notciv": "spart" }
unlock_females_house.json:		"spart": "Thesmophoria"
wonder_population_cap.json:		"spart": "Peristasis"

 

[GunChleoc 467]

On 20/02/2021 at 9:58 PM, jorellaf said:

Own my mistak', an' start a'thing ower again, gin I was God. Wrong Doric.

Fit?

[Nescio 1.525]

On 20/02/2021 at 10:58 PM, jorellaf said:

Corral
Suggestion: unchanged; Epaulos [Ἔπαυλος], or Mandrâ [Μάνδρᾱ], or Ostrimon [Ὄστριμον] (applies to other Greeks too)

  All three are fine, I have no preference here; do you? The former might have been chosen because 0 A.D.'s corral is more than just an enclosure, it also has a little building, though I'm guessing here.

On 20/02/2021 at 10:58 PM, jorellaf said:

Palisade
Suggestion: Charax [Χἀραξ], or Skolops [Σκόλοψ] (applies to other Greeks too)

The latter should be pluralized: σκόλοψ (singular) means ‘pale, stake, anything pointy’, while σκόλοπες (plural) means ‘palisade’. The word χάραξ can mean ‘pointed stake, pale’ (like Latin vallus), but also ‘entrenched army camp’ (like Latin vallum); there is also χαράκωμα ‘palisaded enclosure’.

As for why it's currently called ‘palisade’ for all civs, that's because currently all civs share the same file. I've written a patch to address that: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3594 (and opted for σκόλοπες and vallus).

On 20/02/2021 at 10:58 PM, jorellaf said:

Temple
Suggestion: unchanged; Naos [Ναός], but maybe change Attic to Neôs [Νεώς]

Currently all Greek civilizations use the same Greek and νᾱός is the most common form; however, other forms are attested, including Ionic νηός, Attic νεώς, Aeolic ναῦος, and Spartan ναϝός.

On 21/02/2021 at 12:47 PM, jorellaf said:

Phoenician

Do you actually know any Phoenician, other than the alphabet (abjad)?

[jorellaf 11]

12 hours ago, Nescio said:

All three are fine, I have no preference here; do you? The former might have been chosen because 0 A.D.'s corral is more than just an enclosure, it also has a little building, though I'm guessing here.

Nope, but I wanted to put the other options there too, to be thorough. I don't have a preference for any.

12 hours ago, Nescio said:

The latter should be pluralized:

Yes! Must have escaped me. I will change it once I add the new justifications. Thank you for pointing it out.

12 hours ago, Nescio said:

Spartan ναϝός.

Yes, ναϝός is attested. I will change the suggestion.

12 hours ago, Nescio said:

Do you actually know any Phoenician, other than the alphabet (abjad)?

Not very much. I have a grammar and I have had done some minor translation work for my own stuff, but I know more Georgian than Phoenician, and that's saying something.

I will work on this stuff (and the Celtic stuff) on the weekend, since I have a busy week. Will make the changes then.

Edited Wednesday at 11:21 by jorellaf