jorellaf 18 Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 (edited) Own my mistak', an' start a'thing ower again, gin I was God. Wrong Doric. I'll be collecting here the Doric (specifically, Laconian) equivalents for the building (and later, units) for the Sparta faction. Laconian is Doric Greek, along with Cretan, Corinthian, Megaraean, etc., which itself is part of the West Greek dialects, along with North-West Greek. I will be mainly using Buck (1909), Introduction to the Study of the Greek Dialects: Grammar, Selected Inscriptions, Glossary and maybe Jeffery (1963), The Local Scripts of Archaic Greece: A Study of the Origin of the Greek Alphabet and its Development from the Eighth to the Fifth Centuries B.C., as well as the LSJ. The Doric dialects often retain the digamma (Ϝϝ) until late, pronounced /w/. I will transliterate them as w, as per the ALA-LC Romani(s)ation Table of Greek, which is listed in the 0 A.D. ground rules for Greek as a source. Since the heroes for Sparta are either 5th century, or early 4th, I will assume the dialect (and ortography) to be from around the same time. From around the 4th century, Laconian inscriptions begin spelling initial /w/ with Β instead. Long a is not part of the romanisation, but I will write them as ā regardless, in case clarity is needed for later. According to Buck, ε and ο were more open (/ɛ/ and /ɔ/) than in Attic (/e/ and /o/), Υυ was pronounced /u/, not like Attic /y/. Buildings Civic CentreSuggestion: unchanged (Agorā [Ἀγορά] /a.go.rǎː/)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Surprising ending of -ā instead of -ē for Attic.Comments: None. HouseSuggestion: : Woikos [Ϝοἶκος] /wɔ̂i̯.kɔs/Justification: Initial ϝ is often retained in Laconian, sometimes spellt with a β. Woikos not specifically attested to my knowledge in Laconian, but is present in Cretan, Delphic, Phocian, Elean (both ϝ & β), and Koine at Olympia (with β).Comments: None. StorehouseSuggestion:: Apothēkā [Ἀποθήκᾱ] /a.pɔ.tʰɛ̌ː.kaː/ : perhaps Laconian Awēr? [Ἀϝήρ] /a.wɛ̌r/Justification: Attic and Ionic changed original ā to ē. Most other dialects maintain original ā, including, surprisingly, Attic. Apotheke comes from ἀπο-θήκη, which comes from τιθήμι (also ē in Doric). Ending of -η is Attic from -ᾱ, and a Laconian attestation (SGDI.4598) of -theka exists (though written by a Tegean), παρκα(θ)θεκα (Att: παρακαταθήκε). So, Apotheka seems like the right choice. However, according to Hesychius, ἀβήρ (ἀϝήρ) is 'οἴκημα στοὰς ἔχον, ταμεῖον Λάκωνες', i.e. 'room/chamber having a colonnade(?), Laconian ταμεῖον (treasury, magazine, storehouse, store-room, reservoir)'. A Laconian storehouse, apparently, but the LSJ and other dictionaries put it as the Doric of ἀήρ (air), so it's up in the air (badum-tshh)Comments: None. FarmsteadSuggestion: unchanged (Epoikion [Ἐποίκιον] /ɛ.pɔǐ̯.ki.ɔn/)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable.Comments: None. FieldSuggestion: unchanged (Agros [Ἀγρός] /a.grɔ́s/)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable.Comments: None. CorralSuggestion: : unchanged (Epaulos [Ἔπαυλος] /ɛ́.pau̯.lɔs/) : or Mandrā [Μάνδρᾱ] /mán.draː/ : or Ostrimon [Ὄστριμον] /ɔ́s.tri.mɔn/ (applies to other Greeks too)Justification: Epaulos = fold for cattle, Mandra = fold for cattle (oddly, the Attic didn't change to Mandrē). Ostrimon = byre (barn for cows), enclosure for cattle (Bailly also says 'stable'). None of these have Laconian vowel or consonant changes that are applicable.Comments: Neither myself nor @Nescio have a preference for any over another. HarbourSuggestion: unchanged (Limēn [Λιμήν] /li.mɛ̌ːn/)Justification: It seems to be a real ē, rather than ā>ē. I've gone nothing else.Comments: None. BarracksSuggestion: unchanged (Stratopedon [Στρατόπεδον] /stra.tɔ́.pɛ.dɔn/)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable.Comments: None. StableSuggestion: unchanged (Hippōn [Ἱππών] /hip.pɔ̌ːn/)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable.Comments: None. LookoutSuggestion: unchanged (Prophylagma [Προφύλαγμα] /prɔ.pʰú.lag.ma/)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable.Comments: None. Sentry & Stone TowerSuggestion: unchanged (Pyrgidion [Πυργἰδιον] /pur.gí.di.ɔn/ & Pyrgion [Πύργος] /púr.gɔs/)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable.Comments: None. PalisadeSuggestion: : Charakes [Χἀρακες] /kʰá.ra.kes/ : or Skolopes [Σκόλοψες] /skɔ́.lɔ.psɛs/ : or Charakōma [Χαράκωμα] /kʰa.rá.kɔː.ma/ (applies to other Greeks too)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Charakes = pl. of charax (pale). Skolopes = pl. of Skolops (pale, stake). Charakoma = pallisaded camp.Comments: No preference. Thanks to @Nescio for the suggestions. Palisade GateSuggestion: TBAJustification: TBAComments: TBA BlacksmithSuggestion: unchanged (Chalkeōn [Χαλκεὠν] /kʰal.kɛ.ɔ̌ːn/)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable.Comments: None. TempleSuggestion: : Naos [Νᾱός] /naː.ós/ but maybe change Athens' to Neōs [Νεώς] /nɛ.ǒːs/Justification: According to Buck (41.4, 53, 54.f.), most dialects lost intervocallic or post-consonantal ϝ early on, by the fifth century, and suggests νᾱός for Doric.Comments: Thanks to @Nescio for the suggestion of intervocallic digamma, though I did not implement it. MarketSuggestion: unchanged (Emporion [Ἐμπόριον] /ɛm.pɔ́.ri.ɔn/)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable.Comments: None. ArsenalSuggestion: : Hoplothēkā [Ὁπλοθήκᾱ] /hɔ.plɔ.tʰɛ̌ː.kaː/Justification: Same as Apotheka (see above). Attested Laconian (Tegean scribe) -thēkā.Comments: None. FortressSuggestion: : Phrōrion [Φρώριον] /pʰrɔ̌ː.ri.ɔn/Justification: The Attic Phrourion has a spurious ou diphthong, which would have been rendered as ō in Laconian (Buck 25).Comments: None. TheatreSuggestion: unchanged (Theātron [Θέᾱτρον] /tʰɛ́.aː.tron/)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Surprising ā instead of ē for Attic.Comments: None. WonderSuggestion: : (H)Iaron tās Artamitos Worthias [Ἱ/Ἰαρὀν τᾶς Ἀρταμίτος Ϝορθίας] /(h)i.a.rɔ́n tǎsː ar.ta.mí.tɔs wɔr.tʰí.as/Justification: Mainly attested from late (2nd century CE) Laconian inscriptions (Buck, Laconian Inscriptions 70-73); however, they follow general rules present since earlier periods. Hiaron or Iaron from Attic Hieron are the regular forms according to Buck (13.1) and both are attested in the LSJ for Doric. Tās vs. Attic tēs is obvious. Inscriptions mentioned have Artemitos, but 70 has Artemidos; however, Artamis is the most common West Greek, and was only later replaced in Doric by Artemis (13.2). The -idos (vs. -itos) is probably Koine influence from Attic gen.sg. Artemidos. Mentioned inscriptions write Borthea, but 73 writes Worthea; however, it was common for Laconian to use ι for ε before another vowel (so, Worthia), and only later was the spelling changed back to ε (9.5), probably from Koine influence. The sound could have been a /ɪ/ if not outright /i/.Comments: None. Military Mess HallSuggestion: unchanged (Syssition [Συσσίτιον] /su.sí.ti.on/)Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable, especially since it is apparently a Laconian word, present since at least Herodotus (1.65.5).Comments: None. Technologies Units Edited March 14 by jorellaf 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nescio 1.647 Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 Could you provide the (polytonic) Greek too? Some people can read it and it makes it easier to spot tiny mistakes. And also list the entity template names (e.g. house), it'll help when writing a mod or patch. As for using Doric Greek in 0 A.D., I'm not necessarily against, however, I have some concerns: It may make players wonder the specific name of a Spartan entity is occassionally spelled differently than its Athenian equivalent, though that's not necessarily a bad thing. Furthermore, consistency matters. Doric was also spoken on e.g. Crete; in 0 A.D. the Athenians can recruit Cretan mercenaries; should their specific name be in Doric or Attic then? And should Aeolic/Boeotian be used for Theban units? The bulk of the Greek corpus is in Attic; having other dialects necessitates using reconstructed rather than attested forms. 11 hours ago, jorellaf said: though I wouldn't mind a tip about how to type them easier. It depends on the keyboard setting you're using. The default US English has only two levels (without and with Shift), but switching to e.g. international adds two more, with AltGr (the key to the right of the Space bar). On my end (Gnome) I can type the macron with: AltGr+Shift+3 on the “English (intl., with AltGr dead keys)” keyboard AltGr+Shift+[ on the “Greek” keyboard They might have different locations (and keyboard names) on your operating system. 11 hours ago, jorellaf said: Long a is not part of the romanisation, but I will write them as â regardless Great! Vowel length is important. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Genava55 1.336 Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 If I recall correctly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jorellaf 18 Posted February 21 Author Report Share Posted February 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nescio said: It may make players wonder the specific name of a Spartan entity is occassionally spelled differently than its Athenian equivalent, though that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'd say that's a good thing! Mild confusion can easily lead to learning. 1 hour ago, Nescio said: Furthermore, consistency matters. Doric was also spoken on e.g. Crete; in 0 A.D. the Athenians can recruit Cretan mercenaries; should their specific name be in Doric or Attic then? And should Aeolic/Boeotian be used for Theban units? I think to avoid any headaches, we basically make the names from the point of view of the faction. Athenians will call things by their names in Attic, Spartans, by their names in Doric. Even though that would remove any Petthalian dialect from the game, my personal favourite . 1 hour ago, Nescio said: The bulk of the Greek corpus is in Attic; having other dialects necessitates using reconstructed rather than attested forms. I understand where you're coming from, but this is a bit too strict in my view, especially in regards to Doric, which is very conservative in comparison to East Greek. Most changes found in the Attic and Ionian dialects are very regular, and very particular to those. The main changes would be ᾱ>η, ô>ου vs Doric ô>ω, σσ>ττ, verbal stuff which is not needed here, and phonology. In these cases, the odd ones are Attic and Ionic, and most other dialects would preserve the original forms. This means recreating a non-Attic equivalent would be very easy, and doubtfully incorrect, even if we don't have literary attestations (even then, some Attic Greek words are attested only a handful of times sometimes, as you probably know). However, I will still try to be as thorough as possible and justify all changes as clearly as possible. As you can see, serendipitously, they're not that many. 1 hour ago, Nescio said: On my end (Gnome) I can type the macron with: That's a Linux only feature. Windows is dumb and doesn't do that. Maybe I'll set up an autohotkey. 1 hour ago, Nescio said: Could you provide the (polytonic) Greek too? Some people can read it and it makes it easier to spot tiny mistakes. And also list the entity template names (e.g. house), it'll help when writing a mod or patch. Will make changes. Thanks for the feedback! Quote If I recall correctly. Thanks! will help when I move on to units. Edited February 21 by jorellaf 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nescio 1.647 Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 20 minutes ago, jorellaf said: I think to avoid any headaches, we basically make the names from the point of few of the faction. Athenians will call things by their names in Attic, Spartans, by their names in Doric. Even though that would remove any Petthalian dialect from the game, my personal favourite . That would work for the current situation, though if at some point mercenaries are made civilization-independent, we'll re-encounter that headache. Anyway, something to worry about then and there. 28 minutes ago, jorellaf said: I understand where you're coming from, but this is a bit too strict in my view, especially in regards to Doric, which is very conservative in comparison to East Greek. Most changes found in the Attic and Ionian dialects are very regular, and very particular to those. The main changes would be ᾱ>η, ô>ου vs Doric ô>ω, σσ>ττ, verbal stuff which is not needed here, and phonology. In these cases, the odd ones are Attic and Ionic, and most other dialects would preserve the original forms. This means recreating a non-Attic equivalent would be very easy, and doubtfully incorrect, even if we don't have literary attestations (even then, some Attic Greek words are attested only a handful of times sometimes, as you probably know). However, I will still try to be as thorough as possible and justify all changes as clearly as possible. As you can see, serendipitously, they're not that many. It's not just the different sound changes I'm worried about, that part is fairly certain (at least for Doric), however, there is also vocabulary, e.g. Doric has κέστερ, Attic νεανίας ‘young man’. A dialect is more than just a respelling. Likewise, when converting British English to American English, changing centre and colour to center and color is the easy part, but maize vs corn is harder to spot. And English variants are very similar to each other, much less so e.g. Luxembourgish or Swiss German vs Standard High German, or Tsakonian vs Modern Greek. 21 minutes ago, jorellaf said: That's a Linux only feature. Windows is dumb and doesn't do that. Maybe I'll set up an autohotkey. Yes, Linux makes a lot of things much easier. Nevertheless, surely Windows must have an option to choose a different keyboard? If switching from English to Spanish is possible, or from QWERTY to DVORAK, then it should be possible to use a layout with AltGr? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jorellaf 18 Posted February 21 Author Report Share Posted February 21 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Nescio said: It's not just the different sound changes I'm worried about, that part is fairly certain (at least for Doric), however, there is also vocabulary, e.g. Doric has κέστερ, Attic νεανίας ‘young man’. A dialect is more than just a respelling. Ah I see what you mean. I will do due dilligence as best as I can for that as well when that comes up, probably with the units, rather than buildings. Case in point, I found the word ἀβήρ (ἀϝήρ), which, according to Hesychius, is οἴκημα στοὰς ἔχον, ταμεῖον Λάκωνες, i.e. 'room/chamber having a colonnade(?), Laconian(nom/voc.pl!) ταμεῖον (treasury, magazine, storehouse, store-room, reservoir)'. But the LSJ and other dictionaries put it as the Doric of ἀήρ (air), so I wasn't sure if I should put it or not, though I will write more for it there. 21 minutes ago, Nescio said: If switching from English to Spanish is possible, or from QWERTY to DVORAK, then it should be possible to use a layout with AltGr? I use like 9 keyboards already, from Phoenician to Polytonic Greek. Don't want to add Latvian or Māori for the macrons alone! Edited February 21 by jorellaf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nescio 1.647 Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 By the way, don't forget some technologies have specific names too: [technologies]$ grep spart * agoge.json: { "civ": "spart" } attack_soldiers_will.json: "spart": "Dynamis" grep: civbonuses: Is a directory gather_mining_serfs.json: "spart": "Heilōtes" gather_mining_servants.json: "spart": "Douloi" gather_mining_slaves.json: "spart": "Andrapoda" heal_range.json: "spart": "Olympic Pantheon" heal_rate_2.json: "spart": "Hippocratic Oath" heal_rate.json: "spart": "Sphagia" phase_city_generic.json: "spart": "Megalopolis" phase_town_generic.json: "spart": "Kōmopolis" pop_house_01.json: "spart": "Peristylon" soldier_attack_melee_01.json: "spart": "Xiphos" soldier_resistance_hack_01.json: "spart": "Spolas" soldier_resistance_hack_02.json: "spart": "Linothōrax" tower_watch.json: "spart": "Nyktophylakes" unlock_champion_cavalry.json: { "notciv": "spart" } unlock_champion_infantry.json: { "notciv": "spart" } unlock_females_house.json: "spart": "Thesmophoria" wonder_population_cap.json: "spart": "Peristasis" 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GunChleoc 471 Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 On 20/02/2021 at 9:58 PM, jorellaf said: Own my mistak', an' start a'thing ower again, gin I was God. Wrong Doric. Fit? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nescio 1.647 Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 On 20/02/2021 at 10:58 PM, jorellaf said: CorralSuggestion: unchanged; Epaulos [Ἔπαυλος], or Mandrâ [Μάνδρᾱ], or Ostrimon [Ὄστριμον] (applies to other Greeks too) All three are fine, I have no preference here; do you? The former might have been chosen because 0 A.D.'s corral is more than just an enclosure, it also has a little building, though I'm guessing here. On 20/02/2021 at 10:58 PM, jorellaf said: PalisadeSuggestion: Charax [Χἀραξ], or Skolops [Σκόλοψ] (applies to other Greeks too) The latter should be pluralized: σκόλοψ (singular) means ‘pale, stake, anything pointy’, while σκόλοπες (plural) means ‘palisade’. The word χάραξ can mean ‘pointed stake, pale’ (like Latin vallus), but also ‘entrenched army camp’ (like Latin vallum); there is also χαράκωμα ‘palisaded enclosure’. As for why it's currently called ‘palisade’ for all civs, that's because currently all civs share the same file. I've written a patch to address that: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3594 (and opted for σκόλοπες and vallus). On 20/02/2021 at 10:58 PM, jorellaf said: TempleSuggestion: unchanged; Naos [Ναός], but maybe change Attic to Neôs [Νεώς] Currently all Greek civilizations use the same Greek and νᾱός is the most common form; however, other forms are attested, including Ionic νηός, Attic νεώς, Aeolic ναῦος, and Spartan ναϝός. On 21/02/2021 at 12:47 PM, jorellaf said: Phoenician Do you actually know any Phoenician, other than the alphabet (abjad)? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jorellaf 18 Posted February 24 Author Report Share Posted February 24 (edited) 12 hours ago, Nescio said: All three are fine, I have no preference here; do you? The former might have been chosen because 0 A.D.'s corral is more than just an enclosure, it also has a little building, though I'm guessing here. Nope, but I wanted to put the other options there too, to be thorough. I don't have a preference for any. 12 hours ago, Nescio said: The latter should be pluralized: Yes! Must have escaped me. I will change it once I add the new justifications. Thank you for pointing it out. 12 hours ago, Nescio said: Spartan ναϝός. Yes, ναϝός is attested. I will change the suggestion. 12 hours ago, Nescio said: Do you actually know any Phoenician, other than the alphabet (abjad)? Not very much. I have a grammar and I have had done some minor translation work for my own stuff, but I know more Georgian than Phoenician, and that's saying something. I will work on this stuff (and the Celtic stuff) on the weekend, since I have a busy week. Will make the changes then. Edited February 24 by jorellaf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jorellaf 18 Posted March 9 Author Report Share Posted March 9 (edited) On 24/02/2021 at 12:18 PM, jorellaf said: I will work on this stuff (and the Celtic stuff) on the weekend, since I have a busy week. Will make the changes then. Seems it was more of a fortnight. Will add things tomorrow. I managed to make a custom keyboard layout for my Windows with better deadkeys, so now I can do āēīōūȳčšḥṣžřŵŷṙ easily, no more ^ shortcuts. Also a custom Polytonic keyboard to type koppas and digammas ϜϝϘϙ. Edited March 9 by jorellaf 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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