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jorellaf's Achievements


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  1. Back from some crazy last 3 months of work. Added Farmstead and Storehouse. Will keep adding more a bit slowly, since schedules are clearing up a bit for me.
  2. Ok, updated down to where we left off, and even added new stuff. I will keep adding stuff in the coming days.
  3. Think that means postdata, or P.S. in English.
  4. Just don't want to make it seem like I'm ignoring our discussion or your comments. I'll will look into what you said on Lissos soon.
  5. I need to incorporate the suggestions from the previous thread too! I've been quite busy, so I just copy-pasted stuff. I will add your previous comments to the different suggestions, and modify them accordingly, just need to find and make some time.
  6. Seems it was more of a fortnight. Will add things tomorrow. I managed to make a custom keyboard layout for my Windows with better deadkeys, so now I can do āēīōūȳčšḥṣžřŵŷṙ easily, no more ^ shortcuts. Also a custom Polytonic keyboard to type koppas and digammas ϜϝϘϙ.
  7. Back from my hiatus. I will keep coming back to this post to add more info, or maybe add more words later. I will also add the comments from the post where this list was before (here). I will be using Matasović (2009), Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Celtic, and to a lesser extent, Xavier Delamarre (2003), Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise: Une approche linguistique du vieux-celtique continental, Dottin (1920), La langue gauloise: grammaire, textes et glossaire, as well as the documents for Gallo-Brittonic by Deiniol Jones, the old University of Wales Celtic Lexicon documents, and a bit of Wiktionary and other sources if needed. Deinol Jones follows Gallo-Brittonic, rather than P/Q- or Insular/Continental Celtic division, which is useful since both factions would belong to the same overall dialect continuum, meaning the same names could be plausibly used for either, unless we want very specific regionalism. Spelling can be altered at will (c=k, i=y=i, u=w=u, v=w, no long vowels, etc.). House Suggestion: : Tegos [pl. Tegesā] /ˈte.gos/ - house : Butā [pl. Butās] /ʽbu.taː/ - dwelling/hut : Wastu(s) [pl. Wastow(ā/es)] /ʽwas.tu(s)/ - dwelling : or maybe Tigos [pl. Tigesā] /ˈti.gos/ Could use both, Tegos for Gauls, Tigos for Britons. Justification: Matasović, Delamarre, and the UoWales lexicon give the PCelt. (Proto-Celtic) word *tegos- (house) with -s stem, so nom.sg. *tegos, and would give either GallBrit. (Gallo-Brittonic) *tegos- or *tigos-, with e>i, (see OW (Old Welsh) tig, making GallBritt. g>∅, difficult to justify, especially as Delamarre mentions it is only late Gaulish (p. 97)), though with the attested Lat. (Latin) attegia-hut in Juvenal, from where the previously suggested tegia comes from, the e>i might be overzealous. The Jones lexicon gives tegos as well. Matasović gives *ad-teg-yā as derivation, which would ultimately come from the same *tegos-. Matasović is unsure about *tīg-s, so perhaps Tegos is the better choice, or we use the two different ablauts for the two different factions. However, Delamarre shows possible attestations with *tigos-, such as Tigorix and Tiotiginus (thanks to @Genava55 for the suggestion). Another option is Butā (dwelling, hut), present in Matasović and Delamarre (as PCelt. and Gaul. *butā), but not Dottin. One final option is using Matasović's PCelt. *wastu- (dwelling), though it is not present in Delemarre or Dottin. Matasović suggests MW gwas (dwelling) as a descendant, with cognates in Skt. (Sanskrit) vā́stu- (site of a house) and Gr. (Greek) (w)ásty (town). Assuming fem. from the MW, though the Skt. and Gr. (and also the PIE) are neut., so it could be either fem. Wastus (pl. Wastowes), or neut. Wastu (pl. Wastowā). Perhaps the neut. is more likely. Comments: @Genava55 is happy with Tegos, and helped with suggestions. Corral Suggestion: unchanged (Cagio(n/s) [pl. Cagi(ā/oi)] /ˈka.gjo(n/s)/ - pen or enclosure) : or maybe Crāwos [pl. Crāwoi] /ˈkraː.wos/ - stable or enclosure : or maybe Cagro(n/s) [pl. Cagr(ā/oi)] - enclosure or fort Justification: Matasović gives PCelt. *kagyo- (pen, enclosure), which would give GallBritt. *cagio-, or *caio-. Delamarre gives *cagio- for Brittonic and Goedelic. Attested as caio (wine cellar, quay) as well for Gaulish, from the Vienna/Endlicher's Glossary. The UoW lexicon gives nom.sg. cagion (field, pen, fence) as a neut., but unsure why, as all the derived terms even in OBret. (Old Breton) are masculine. Everything from OBret. to MoBret. (Modern Breton) already drops the g as well (but this process is, again, sourced from Wikipedia only). However, from Matasović, the word is attested as cagiíon (either neut.nom.sg. or masc.acc.sg.) in Gaul. (Gaulish), with no g dropping. Another alternative in Matasović is PCelt. *krāfo- (stable, enclosure), thus GallBritt. *crāwo- (Jones lexicon crāwos, masc.), and with OIr. (Old Irish) already as masculine, I assume nom.sg.masc. crāwos. However, Delamarre does not give this root, and Dottin gives Gaul. craff 'farm' as part of *crappao-. Another possibility, using Matasović *kagro- ('enclosure', 'fort'), though this is only found there and in the UoW, which gives the gender as neut.; though, again, I am not sure why, as it could be both. The meaning of 'fort' might present some need for reconsideration, but the possibility is still there. Comments: I prefer Cagio(n/s). Not sure about the rest. Farm Suggestion: unchanged (Olcā [pl. Olcās] /ˈol.kaː/) Justification: Matasović gives PCelt *folkā- (arable land), found also on the UoWales docs, which gives GallBritt. *olcā- (nom.sg. olcā, as in the Jones lexicon), with initial f/φ dropping. Attested in Gregory of Tours as Latin olca, confirmed by Dottin and Delamarre, Matasović suggesting from Gaul. *olca. Comments: None. Civic Centre Suggestion: : Wentācridion [pl. Wentācridiā] /ʽwen.taː.kri.djon/ - town's heart : or Towtācridion [pl. Towtācridiā] /ʽtow.taː.kri.djon/ - tribe's heart : or with -sedlo(s/n)/-sedl(os/ā) instead of -cridios (Wentāsedlo(s/n) /ʽwen.taː.sed.lo(s/n)/, Towtāsedlo(s/n) /ʽtow.taː.sed.lo(s/n)/) - seat instead of heart : or Cori(o)- instead of Wentā (Cori(o)cridion /ʽko.r(i/jo).kri.djon/, or Cori(o)sedlo(s/n) /ʽko.r(i/jo).sed.lo(s/n)/) - troop/tribe instead of town Later Gaul. has neut.nom.pl. -ī instead of ā, affecting the plural of e.g. Wentācridion (Wentācridī), Many more options available, since it's a made-up compound. For Britons specifically: : Tigern(i/o)sedlo(s/n) [pl. Tigern(i/o)sedl(oi/ā)] /ʽti.ger.n(i/o).sed.lo(s/n)/ - the lord's/master's seat : or Rīgosedlo(s/n) [pl. Rīgosedl(oi/ā)] /ʽriː.go.sed.lon/ - the king's seat : or Tigern(i/o)tegos /ʽti.ger.n(i/o).te.gos/ - the lord's/master's house : or Rīgotegos /ʽriː.go.te.gos/ - the king's house Maybe also Butā and Wastu(s) instead of Tegos. Tegos>Tigos also possible. Wentā may be particular to Brittonic too, so perhaps those only apply here. We could also use two words in genitive apposition instead (Cridion Wentās, Sedlo(s/n) Towtās, Cridion Corī etc.). Justification: Delamarre gives *lissos (court, palace), with OIr. les (yard), MIr. (Modern Irish) and MSG (Modern Scottish Gaelic) lios, MW llys, MoCor. (Modern Cornish) lys, and MoBret. lez. Modern meanings in Goidelic languages are invariably 'court(-yard)', rather than 'palace', and the possible Greek cognate given by Delamarre means 'flat' or 'broad' (πλατύς), though it seems Brittonic languages do invariably keep the idea of 'court' (e.g. of law; thanks to @Genava55 for pointing this out). I am still suspicious of the PCelt. lemma, since the change from i>e does not seem plausible from my admittedly limited knowledge of Celtic, and instead *lesso- seems more plausible, with PCelt. less- > llys- in MW, and then the rest maintaning the original e, but I could be wrong. The lemma is only attested in Delamarre and Dottin. I like Tīgernotreba, but since not all Gauls had a singular ruler, and both Matasović and Dottin give *treba- as 'settlement' or a variant thereof (though UoWales gives 'home', and Jones gives both settlement and home), I propose a different compound, either 'heart of the town' or 'heart of the people/tribe', or with 'seat' instead of 'heart'. This is very speculative, many alternatives could be thought up, involving all these words or many more. I will justify Wentācridion primarily. Tīgerno- (lord/master), however could still be interesting for the Brittonic tribes. Matasović gives PCelt. *kridyo- (heart), *wentā- (place, town), and *towtā- (people, tribe), as well as *sedlo- (seat). Dottin only confirms *sedlo- and *towtā-, with Delamarre and the UoWales confirming those. Delamarre also confirms *kridyo-, but not directly *wentā-, which is common in Brittonic placenames. UoW confirms *wentā-, but also adds a meaning of 'marketplace', not shared with anyone else, though Delamarre suggests *wenet- to mean 'merchants' or 'allies' (pl??). This gives GallBritt. *cridio-, *towtā-, *wentā-, and either *sedlo- or *sidlo-, though for *sedlo-, caneco-sedlon is attested in Gaul., meaning likely no e>i and implies a neuter noun, though Delamarre also suggests that the attestation is an sg.acc. of *sedlos, so not all that clear! Jones gives cridyon (centre!!?), toutā (tribe), wentā (place, marketplace), and sedlo(n/s) (seat), all nom.sg. Possession is done as apposition in modern Celtic languages, and it seems also in GallBritt.; i.e. son [nom.] (of) John's [gen.], but in this case, I suggest we instead look for compound words, which appear to be usually done instead by merging the two stems as sg.gen+sg.nom, losing the final coda for all but the last word. For 'heart of the town', this would give Wentācridion, from nom.sg. cridion (assuming the OIr. and PIE (Proto-Indo-European) neuter is correct) and gen.sg. wentās. Similar pattern for 'heart of the people', as Towtācridion. Using 'seat' instead of 'heart' would be simply replacing cridion with sedlo(s/n), so Wentāsedlo(s/n). Since Matasović gives PCelt. *koryo- for both troop and tribe (though Delamarre, Dottin, Jones, and UoWales give only 'army'), giving GallBritt. *corio-, which you could argue for using it in place of *wentā-, with corio(s/n) (or pl. cori(oi/a)), another unknown gender word. MW uses canolfan for 'civic centre', canol-centre and man-place; centre-place, whilst Breton and Cornish have kres and krez ('centre'), which Matasović and Delamarre (and presumably also Jones) suggest comes from *kridyo-. All sources attest *tīgerno-, suggesting lord, or master. This would be applicable only to the Britons, since Gauls were not exclusively monarchic. Assumed N.masc. from more modern words. Unsure whether to use Tigerni- as the coda-less sg.masc.gen. o-stem, or Tigerno-, as the nicer looking (but possibly incorrect) prefix. Same case for Cori-/Corio-. Matasović gives *rīg- as the root of the very famous -rix ('king', e.g. Vercingetorix). Velar stem nom.sg. rīgs>rīx. Dottin does not give a root. Delamarre does not give a very clear one, but suggests PIE *rēĝs-, but compounds starting with (presumably gen.sg.) Rigo- are attested, so it seems like a velar stem, rather than an s-stem. The UoWales documents agree with Matasović. Comments: @Genava55 thankfully provided info for *lissos. No preference given from myself. @Genava55 liked the previous version of Towtācridion, not sure if he will like the updated one. Barracks Suggestion: : Cori(o)tegos [pl. Cori(o)tegasā] /ʽko.r(i/jo).te.gos/ - troops'-house : or unchanged (Cori(o)sedlo(s/n) [pl. Cori(o)sedl(oi/a)] /ʽko.r(i/jo).sed.lo(s/n)/ - troops'-seat) : or with Cinget(i/o)- instead of Corio- (Cinget(i/o)tegos /ʽkɪn.ge.t(i/o).te.gos/, Cinget(i/o)sedlo(s/n) /ʽkɪn.ge.t(i/o).sed.lo(s/n)/) - warrior(s)'s instead of troops' : or with Slowg(i/o)- instead of Corio- (Slowg(i/o)tegos /ʽslow.g(i/o).te.gos/, Slowg(i/o)sedlo(s/n) /ʽslow.g(i/o).sed.lo(s/n)/) - troops'/army's instead of troops' : or with with Budīnā(s)- isntead of Corio- (Budīnā(s)tegos /ʽbu.diː.naː(s).te.gos/, Budīnāsedlo(s/n) /ʽbu.diː.naːsed.lo(s/n)/) - troops'/hosts' instead of troops' We could also use Butā or Wastu(s) instead of Tegos (troops'-hut or troops'-dwelling). We could also use two words in genitive apposition instead (Tegos Corion, Sedlo(s/n) Cingeton, Tegos Budinās, etc.). We could also maybe use a compound in nominative (troop-house instead of troops'-house or house of troops; e.g. Coriotegos or Cingetobutā). Justification: Again, many different compunds imaginable, none secure. I like Coriosedlon, though I'm not sure the way barracks exist in the game is that exact to a praesidium, or 'seat of the warriors'. I propose instead 'warrior-house' or ' warriors' house', so Coriotegos from GallBritt. *tegos- and *corio- (see above), with nom.sg. tegos, and either gen.sg. Cori(o)- or gen.pl. Corio-. Same issue as Tigerno- above, where the sg.gen. is Cori, but keeping the o looks nicer, and is closer to the stem. This applies also to Cingeto- and Slowgo-. And instead of Tegos (house), we could use Butā (hut/dwelling) as well. Matasović gives *kenget- for 'warrior', Dottin gives cinget- (I guess not a root, but a prefix?), whilst Delamarre gives *cingets, and the UoWales docs are unsure about *kenget-. Declension is not very important, since we have Ver-cingeto-rix, though the gen.pl of an s-stem is -eson, so cingeson, not cingeton (for a dental stem), which might be more plausible? All sources attest *slowgo- or some variation in spelling, meaning 'army' or 'troop', giving either gen.sg slowgi (for army), or gen.pl slowgon (for troops). All sources besides Dottin give *budīnā- for 'troop' or 'host', though Delamarre suggests it could have originally meant 'border-guard-force', and UoWales is unsure about it. For singular, the stem is the same since gen.sg. is -ās, but for gen.pl it becomes a bit difficult, since it could either be -ānon or -ān, and could therefore make the compounding root as Budīnāno-, instead of Budīnā-. MW uses gwersyllty, which means gwersyll-camp tŷ-house; camphouse, as well as barics, from the English. MIr. also uses a calque of English barracks, and MSG uses taigh-feachd, 'army-house(?)'. MoBret. uses a calque of French caserne, and MoCor. uses souderji, souder-soldier ji-house; soldier-house. All suggestions could be made into a nominative compound (soldier-house vs. soldier's house vs. house of soldiers), so many of the -i-/-o- issues for the end of the first part become mostly irrelevant. Same thing with standard two-word genitive appositions. Comments: Plenty of converstaion with @Genava55. He disagrees with 'house of-' compounds, for being a very English (presumably also Germanic) formation, though I slightly disagree on pragmatic grounds from the look of the building in-game, however, the terms I thought could attest for such constructions in Celtic ended up being problematic for a few reasons. @Genava55 would be ok with troop-house, which I agree with. I am personally not all that keen on using 'seat', but there is little to choose from. Stables Suggestion: TBA Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Storehouse Suggestion: : Dastis [pl. Dastīs] /ʽdas.tis/ - heap or pile : Crāwos [pl. Crāwoi] /ʽkraː.wos/ - enclosure : or maybe Cantiācridion(?) [pl. Cantiācridiā] /ʽkan.tjaː.kri.djon/ - collection/assembly centre? : or maybe Cantiādastis(?) [pl. Cantiādastīs] /ʽkan.tjaː.das.tis/ - collection/assembly pile? Justification: This one is pretty hard. No known equivalents in ancient Celtic languages. Perhaps the closest could be using Matasović and UoW *dasti- (heap, pile), which would give GallBritt. nom.sg. Dastis. This lemma is not present in Delamarre or Dottin, however. Matasović provides descendants, but I find slightly different spelling, with MW tas (stack), not das, and MIr. dais (heap, stack), not daiss. Matasović also states that Condate could be derived from Gaul. *kom-dati- ('confluence'). Matasović gives PCelt. *krāfo- (stable, enclosure, with MW creu-shed), thus GallBritt. *crāwo- (Jones lexicon crāwos, masc.), and with OIr. already as masculine, I assume nom.sg.masc. crāwos. However, Delamarre does not give this root, and Dottin gives Gaulish craff 'farm' as part of *crappao-. A very remote alternative is using Matasović PCelt. *kanti (a preposition meaning 'together with'), and Matasović and Delamarre Gaul. *canti- (together) to mean 'collection' (Delamarre suggests 'assembly'), and pair it with *corion-centre to make 'collection centre'. Attested as Cantiorix, and OIr. céite-assembly (also 'hill', and 'mount' though, according to the Ceannfhocal Sean-Ghaeilge). Dottin mentions *cantio- in terms of Ir. caint-'language' instead. This could also be paired with Dastis instead of Cridion, to form 'assembly/collection pile' (Cantiādastis). The previously suggested Capanon may come from Dottin's *capanna, which is from Isidore (Orig., 15.15.6), and gives a derivation from Gaul. caban-cabin, though Dottin also admits the word is very unlikely to come from Celtic. Probably not a good option. Not present in either Matasović or Delamarre. Comments: I prefer Dastis for simplicity, and I am concerned with the semantics of Crāwos. Farmstead Suggestion: : Grānobutā [pl. Grānobutās] /ʽgraː.no.bu.taːs/ - grain-hut : Itu(s)butā [pl. Itu(s)butā] /ʽi.tu(s).bu.taːs/ - food-hut : or possibly Mēcobutā [pl. Mēcobutās] /ʽmeː.ko.bu.taː/ - bushel-hut Or with Tegos instead of Butā. We could also use two words in genitive apposition instead (Grānos Butās, Itus Tegesos, etc.). Justification: From Matasović *grāno- (grain), only present there. Has apparent descendants in all modern Celtic languages, though it could have been a loan from Lat. grānum. Another option is Matasović PCelt. *fitu-; Delamarre GallBritt *Itu- (food), though I am not a fan of how 'food hut' sounds. Not present in Dottin. Delamarre also gives the meaning 'cereals' based on OIr. ith-grain, whilst Matasović also provides MBret. ed-grain, but does not add that meaning. One final, quite obscure option is to use Matasović's PCelt. *mēko- (sack or bushel of grain), but this stem is not present in anywhere else. The derivation is from OIr. miach-bushel, and from PIE *meyǵʰ-barley/grain The previously suggested Butā (hut/dwelling; defined above) I thought was too simple to mean 'farmstead', so I coupled it with other words. Comments: None. Blacksmith Suggestion: : Gobannos [pl. Gobannoi] /ʽgo.bæn.noi̯/ - (black)smith : Gobanū [pl. Gobanones] /ʽgo.bæ.nuː/ - (black)smith Or maybe combine with Tegos/Butā/Wastu(s) to make 'house of the smith' (e.g. Gobantegos or Gobanni Wastu(s)) Justification: From Matasović PCelt. *goban-, contra Delamarre GallBritt. *goben-, as there is no clear way how *goban->*goben- works, all attestations in Gaul. are Goban-, and Gall.Britt already closes the a before the nasal, which can lead to OIr. gobae (ae = /e/ or /ɘ/). This would be a masc. n-stem, giving GallBritt. Gobanū. However UoW gives Gobannos from a masc. *gobanno- root, which could also be another possibility. For both cases, OIr is already masculine, so I am inclined to agree with the putative masc. declension for the root. Thurneysen (1940) apparently also gives a -nn-stem for the OIr gobae n-stem (gen. gobann) that acorrding to Wiktionary goes unexplained in Matasović. Dottin gives *gobann (n-stem noun?), from MW gofaint-smiths. For the previous suggestion by @Genava55 of Gobanion (this should have probably been Gobiannon) from Gobannium, I would prefer using a non-proper noun, especially not one filtered through Latin, however the name in Latin including a geminate -nn- is more circumstantial evidence for *gobanno-. The current meaning of the suggested words is as 'smith' (person), but I assume that the meaning can be transferred to 'the smith's (place)'. We could also combine them with the dwelling/house words to make 'house of the smith' (e.g. Gobanowus Tegos) or 'smith's hut' (e.g. Gobanūbutā), though I am not very in favour of this. Comments: Different derivations cause issues. I may be more inclined for Gobannos, but I am not sure. Market Suggestion: Unsure : perhaps unchanged (Magos [pl. Magoi] /ʽma.gos/) : or Rātos [pl. Rātoi] /ʽraː.tos/ - 'selling' : or maybe Wentā [pl. Wentās] - 'place', or 'marketplace'(?) : or maybe Prītos [pl. Prītoi] - 'buying' : or any word meaning 'assembly' or 'assembly place'. Justification: From Delamarre *magos ('field', and later 'market'), also in Dottin and Matasović, but only as 'field', which is the same for every modern Celtic language. No explanation for the semantc shift, but it might be perhaps imagined to be similar to Gr. agora-market from 'gathering place'. There is no explanation, however. An alternative would be a calque of Lat. mercatus-market as the past participle (or action noun suffix -tus) of mercor-trade/sell. We would follow the Matasović and UoW verb *ri-na- (sell), which according to UoW has a part participle of Rātos. Another similar option is to go for the antonym: PCelt. *kʷri-na-> GallBritt. *prina (buy), which would give Prītos according to the UoW. I thought about doing something like 'buying centre', but that seems convoluted and unrealistic for such a common word. If we try to calque Gr. we could use any word for assembly, though we would then have to assume that the semantic link between 'assembly' or 'gathering' is valid in Celtic languages. All modern Celtic languages use terms derived from Lat. mercatus, but there is a MoBret. term (koc'hu(i)) that apparently means 'market' (though this seems to not be the case), from MiBret. (Middle Breton) cochuy, found in the Lagadeuc Catholicon meaning a 'poludomus' in Lat. and French co(c)hue (rabble, hall, crowd), which could suggest something related to 'assembly', but it is late, and the 'market' meaning could be much after GallBrit., if it even is accurate. ScotGael. uses fèill, which has one meaning of 'market', but comes from Lat. vigilia, and is mostly associated with 'feast'. Finally, UoW suggests *wentā- has a meaning of 'marketplace', along with 'place' or 'town'. Delamarre also suggests GallBritt. *wenet- to mean 'merchants' or 'allies' (pl.??), so perhaps Wentā could also be a possibility. Comments: Undecided. I like the calque of Lat., but it is problematic, though the semantic issues of Magos are also an issue. Fortress Suggestion: unchanged (Dūnon [pl. Dūnā] /ʽduː.naː/) : another option is using Cagro(n/s) [pl. Cagr(ā/oi)] /ʽka.gr(aː/oi)/ - fort Justification: Simplest solution is use *duno-, found in all sources as 'fortification' (except Dottin, who only gives 'mound', though this meaning is also in Delamarre, and suggested as plausible by Matasović). OIr. derived term is already neut., and with the attested placenames of -dunum, providing solid evidence for neut. The other option is to use Cagro(n/s) ('fort' or 'enclosure'), but it seems Dunon might be more common. Comments: None. Lookout Suggestion: : Saxtos : or Antosaxtos : or Sentusaxtos : or with -(ad)pistos instead of -saxtos : or Oro- instead of Anto- Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Sentry & Stone Tower Suggestion: : Turris : or Līwancs Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Palisade Suggestion: : Kletā : or Wregis : or Corets Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Wall Suggestion: : Wregis : or Corets Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Wall Turret Suggestion: : Wregēturris : or Coretoturris : or Wregēs Turris : or Coretos Turris : or with Līwancs instead of Turris Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Palisade & Stone Gate Suggestion: : Cletādwār & Alesodwār : or Cletādwār & Liccādwār Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Crannog Suggestion: : Enistī Dunon Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Temple Suggestion: unchanged (Nemeton) Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Siege Workshop Suggestion: : Cerdātīs Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Wonder Suggestion: TBA Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Remogantion Suggestion: TBA Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Navan Fort Suggestion: TBA Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Port Suggestion: : Cawno : or Ritus Justification: TBA Comments: TBA
  8. Nope, but I wanted to put the other options there too, to be thorough. I don't have a preference for any. Yes! Must have escaped me. I will change it once I add the new justifications. Thank you for pointing it out. Yes, ναϝός is attested. I will change the suggestion. Not very much. I have a grammar and I have had done some minor translation work for my own stuff, but I know more Georgian than Phoenician, and that's saying something. I will work on this stuff (and the Celtic stuff) on the weekend, since I have a busy week. Will make the changes then.
  9. Ah I see what you mean. I will do due dilligence as best as I can for that as well when that comes up, probably with the units, rather than buildings. Case in point, I found the word ἀβήρ (ἀϝήρ), which, according to Hesychius, is οἴκημα στοὰς ἔχον, ταμεῖον Λάκωνες, i.e. 'room/chamber having a colonnade(?), Laconian(nom/voc.pl!) ταμεῖον (treasury, magazine, storehouse, store-room, reservoir)'. But the LSJ and other dictionaries put it as the Doric of ἀήρ (air), so I wasn't sure if I should put it or not, though I will write more for it there. I use like 9 keyboards already, from Phoenician to Polytonic Greek. Don't want to add Latvian or Māori for the macrons alone!
  10. I'd say that's a good thing! Mild confusion can easily lead to learning. I think to avoid any headaches, we basically make the names from the point of view of the faction. Athenians will call things by their names in Attic, Spartans, by their names in Doric. Even though that would remove any Petthalian dialect from the game, my personal favourite . I understand where you're coming from, but this is a bit too strict in my view, especially in regards to Doric, which is very conservative in comparison to East Greek. Most changes found in the Attic and Ionian dialects are very regular, and very particular to those. The main changes would be ᾱ>η, ô>ου vs Doric ô>ω, σσ>ττ, verbal stuff which is not needed here, and phonology. In these cases, the odd ones are Attic and Ionic, and most other dialects would preserve the original forms. This means recreating a non-Attic equivalent would be very easy, and doubtfully incorrect, even if we don't have literary attestations (even then, some Attic Greek words are attested only a handful of times sometimes, as you probably know). However, I will still try to be as thorough as possible and justify all changes as clearly as possible. As you can see, serendipitously, they're not that many. That's a Linux only feature. Windows is dumb and doesn't do that. Maybe I'll set up an autohotkey. Will make changes. Thanks for the feedback! Thanks! will help when I move on to units.
  11. Ok, will do. I wasn't sure where. I made one for Doric Greek here in this subforum, I guess one for the Celtic lang would be ok too. No disagreement here.
  12. Own my mistak', an' start a'thing ower again, gin I was God. Wrong Doric. I'll be collecting here the Doric (specifically, Laconian) equivalents for the building (and later, units) for the Sparta faction. Laconian is Doric Greek, along with Cretan, Corinthian, Megaraean, etc., which itself is part of the West Greek dialects, along with North-West Greek. I will be mainly using Buck (1909), Introduction to the Study of the Greek Dialects: Grammar, Selected Inscriptions, Glossary and maybe Jeffery (1963), The Local Scripts of Archaic Greece: A Study of the Origin of the Greek Alphabet and its Development from the Eighth to the Fifth Centuries B.C., as well as the LSJ. The Doric dialects often retain the digamma (Ϝϝ) until late, pronounced /w/. I will transliterate them as w, as per the ALA-LC Romani(s)ation Table of Greek, which is listed in the 0 A.D. ground rules for Greek as a source. Since the heroes for Sparta are either 5th century, or early 4th, I will assume the dialect (and ortography) to be from around the same time. From around the 4th century, Laconian inscriptions begin spelling initial /w/ with Β instead. Long a is not part of the romanisation, but I will write them as ā regardless, in case clarity is needed for later. According to Buck, ε and ο were more open (/ɛ/ and /ɔ/) than in Attic (/e/ and /o/), Υυ was pronounced /u/, not like Attic /y/. Buildings Civic Centre Suggestion: unchanged (Agorā [Ἀγορά] /a.go.rǎː/) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Surprising ending of -ā instead of -ē for Attic. Comments: None. House Suggestion: : Woikos [Ϝοἶκος] /wɔ̂i̯.kɔs/ Justification: Initial ϝ is often retained in Laconian, sometimes spellt with a β. Woikos not specifically attested to my knowledge in Laconian, but is present in Cretan, Delphic, Phocian, Elean (both ϝ & β), and Koine at Olympia (with β). Comments: None. Storehouse Suggestion: : Apothēkā [Ἀποθήκᾱ] /a.pɔ.tʰɛ̌ː.kaː/ : perhaps Laconian Awēr? [Ἀϝήρ] /a.wɛ̌r/ Justification: Attic and Ionic changed original ā to ē. Most other dialects maintain original ā, including, surprisingly, Attic. Apotheke comes from ἀπο-θήκη, which comes from τιθήμι (also ē in Doric). Ending of -η is Attic from -ᾱ, and a Laconian attestation (SGDI.4598) of -theka exists (though written by a Tegean), παρκα(θ)θεκα (Att: παρακαταθήκε). So, Apotheka seems like the right choice. However, according to Hesychius, ἀβήρ (ἀϝήρ) is 'οἴκημα στοὰς ἔχον, ταμεῖον Λάκωνες', i.e. 'room/chamber having a colonnade(?), Laconian ταμεῖον (treasury, magazine, storehouse, store-room, reservoir)'. A Laconian storehouse, apparently, but the LSJ and other dictionaries put it as the Doric of ἀήρ (air), so it's up in the air (badum-tshh) Comments: None. Farmstead Suggestion: unchanged (Epoikion [Ἐποίκιον] /ɛ.pɔǐ̯.ki.ɔn/) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Comments: None. Field Suggestion: unchanged (Agros [Ἀγρός] /a.grɔ́s/) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Comments: None. Corral Suggestion: : unchanged (Epaulos [Ἔπαυλος] /ɛ́.pau̯.lɔs/) : or Mandrā [Μάνδρᾱ] /mán.draː/ : or Ostrimon [Ὄστριμον] /ɔ́s.tri.mɔn/ (applies to other Greeks too) Justification: Epaulos = fold for cattle, Mandra = fold for cattle (oddly, the Attic didn't change to Mandrē). Ostrimon = byre (barn for cows), enclosure for cattle (Bailly also says 'stable'). None of these have Laconian vowel or consonant changes that are applicable. Comments: Neither myself nor @Nescio have a preference for any over another. Harbour Suggestion: unchanged (Limēn [Λιμήν] /li.mɛ̌ːn/) Justification: It seems to be a real ē, rather than ā>ē. I've gone nothing else. Comments: None. Barracks Suggestion: unchanged (Stratopedon [Στρατόπεδον] /stra.tɔ́.pɛ.dɔn/) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Comments: None. Stable Suggestion: unchanged (Hippōn [Ἱππών] /hip.pɔ̌ːn/) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Comments: None. Lookout Suggestion: unchanged (Prophylagma [Προφύλαγμα] /prɔ.pʰú.lag.ma/) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Comments: None. Sentry & Stone Tower Suggestion: unchanged (Pyrgidion [Πυργἰδιον] /pur.gí.di.ɔn/ & Pyrgion [Πύργος] /púr.gɔs/) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Comments: None. Palisade Suggestion: : Charakes [Χἀρακες] /kʰá.ra.kes/ : or Skolopes [Σκόλοψες] /skɔ́.lɔ.psɛs/ : or Charakōma [Χαράκωμα] /kʰa.rá.kɔː.ma/ (applies to other Greeks too) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Charakes = pl. of charax (pale). Skolopes = pl. of Skolops (pale, stake). Charakoma = pallisaded camp. Comments: No preference. Thanks to @Nescio for the suggestions. Palisade Gate Suggestion: TBA Justification: TBA Comments: TBA Blacksmith Suggestion: unchanged (Chalkeōn [Χαλκεὠν] /kʰal.kɛ.ɔ̌ːn/) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Comments: None. Temple Suggestion: : Naos [Νᾱός] /naː.ós/ but maybe change Athens' to Neōs [Νεώς] /nɛ.ǒːs/ Justification: According to Buck (41.4, 53, 54.f.), most dialects lost intervocallic or post-consonantal ϝ early on, by the fifth century, and suggests νᾱός for Doric. Comments: Thanks to @Nescio for the suggestion of intervocallic digamma, though I did not implement it. Market Suggestion: unchanged (Emporion [Ἐμπόριον] /ɛm.pɔ́.ri.ɔn/) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Comments: None. Arsenal Suggestion: : Hoplothēkā [Ὁπλοθήκᾱ] /hɔ.plɔ.tʰɛ̌ː.kaː/ Justification: Same as Apotheka (see above). Attested Laconian (Tegean scribe) -thēkā. Comments: None. Fortress Suggestion: : Phrōrion [Φρώριον] /pʰrɔ̌ː.ri.ɔn/ Justification: The Attic Phrourion has a spurious ou diphthong, which would have been rendered as ō in Laconian (Buck 25). Comments: None. Theatre Suggestion: unchanged (Theātron [Θέᾱτρον] /tʰɛ́.aː.tron/) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable. Surprising ā instead of ē for Attic. Comments: None. Wonder Suggestion: : (H)Iaron tās Artamitos Worthias [Ἱ/Ἰαρὀν τᾶς Ἀρταμίτος Ϝορθίας] /(h)i.a.rɔ́n tǎsː ar.ta.mí.tɔs wɔr.tʰí.as/ Justification: Mainly attested from late (2nd century CE) Laconian inscriptions (Buck, Laconian Inscriptions 70-73); however, they follow general rules present since earlier periods. Hiaron or Iaron from Attic Hieron are the regular forms according to Buck (13.1) and both are attested in the LSJ for Doric. Tās vs. Attic tēs is obvious. Inscriptions mentioned have Artemitos, but 70 has Artemidos; however, Artamis is the most common West Greek, and was only later replaced in Doric by Artemis (13.2). The -idos (vs. -itos) is probably Koine influence from Attic gen.sg. Artemidos. Mentioned inscriptions write Borthea, but 73 writes Worthea; however, it was common for Laconian to use ι for ε before another vowel (so, Worthia), and only later was the spelling changed back to ε (9.5), probably from Koine influence. The sound could have been a /ɪ/ if not outright /i/. Comments: None. Military Mess Hall Suggestion: unchanged (Syssition [Συσσίτιον] /su.sí.ti.on/) Justification: No vowel or consonant changes of Laconian are applicable, especially since it is apparently a Laconian word, present since at least Herodotus (1.65.5). Comments: None. Technologies Units
  13. Will keep that in mind, but will nevertheless try to avoid making too many arbitrary distinctions for building names alone. I will try to put multiple options in though. Those two words would still need to follow the Celtic apposition. So noun.nom noun.gen, unless you want to do an adjectivised noun, in which case it would normally also be noun.nom noun.adj. I mean I still feel like the current Barrack concept (building and everything) could be changed to a 'mustering field' of sorts instead, since that's probably more historically relevant across all factions (e.g. the Capitoline hill assembly in Polybius, or the subsequent allied and Roman muster by the Consuls and Mil. Tribunes). That's asking a lot though.
  14. Would you be ok with using it for both factions, or would you prefer the splitting agreed before? Yeah that's the key issue. Finding some plausible terms for 'mustering ground' would be easy, but then the building doesn't reflect that at this point. My small experience in Welsh prefers the genitive at the end. I think that part of syntax might have been inflexible (Jones seems to suggest so), which would mean Sedloncorion could be the only correct option (this means I'm being rude by just leaving any other option open ), unless you want to do something like 'warrior-seat'.
  15. Well, the definition is given as jarðhús, which is literally Old Norse for earth house, so I don't think that works either. True. Home and house is different for Irish and Welsh. I think 'house of warriors' is less abstract though, since a barrack is technically the living-area for a soldier. What do you think of just using 'warrior-house' (the last suggestion)? Would you consider it less problematic? Still, I would accept having tegos for Briton and sedlo(n/s) for the gauls, though I still think 'seat of the warriors' is a bit too abstract for 'barracks' . Would you prefer the Sedlo(n/s)corion version, or Corio(n)sedlo(n/s)? Gah the image is just too pixelated to read properly. I can maybe see a B myself.
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