===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures

[wackyserious]

3 hours ago, TKogumelos said:

Only suggestion:

Actual Iberian representation of greaves

Carro de Merida (6th or 3rd century B.C.). Iberian manufacture. 

Vessel from Numancia in the Celtiberian area. 2nd century B.C. 

What material could the Carro de Merida greaves possibly made of? What I made above are animal footwraps, would those be accurate?

[wackyserious]

[TKogumelos]

Some problems:
The Hispanic-Chalcidic helmets (the one with the crest with feathers) are more common in the Celtiberian area, although there is at least one case in the Iberian area, in addition, the metal greaves are very very old (6th and 5th centuries BC).

[TKogumelos]

On 05/01/2020 at 1:43 AM, wackyserious said:

Could you reuse the slinger design? It looks like one of the Despeñaperros figures (4th century BC) so it's pretty accurate

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

About the helmet, I think it's good since the game's "Iberians" are Iberians/Celtiberians. The greaves look to be the generic greave props already in the game, so those are easily removed from the actor.

[wackyserious]

Helmets including the Chalcidean occur in variations together with the Roman and Celtic Montefortino and the Iberian leather caps for the elite units.

The greaves can be removed, I will remove them now for the champion unit, but what about greaves from the Punic wars? Like those that could possibly looted by veterans? This is the reason why I added a greave on one foot of the elite rank sprearmen.

Added the slinger quilted cloth as suggested.

[TKogumelos]

20 hours ago, wackyserious said:

What material could the Carro de Merida greaves possibly made of? What I made above are animal footwraps, would those be accurate?

I forgot to comment this. Yes, they would be accurate. Diodorus Siculus said that the Celtiberians wrapped strips of goatskin around their feet. It is possible that the Iberians had the same tradition but it is not reflected in their representations.

Edited January 20, 2022 by TKogumelos

[TKogumelos]

2 minutes ago, TKogumelos said:

I forgot to comment this. Yes, they would be accurate. Diodorus Siculus said that the Celtiberians wrapped strips of goatskin around their feet. It is possible that the Iberians had the same tradition but it is not reflected in their representations.

"And this people, it would appear, provide for warfare not only excellent cavalry but also foot-soldiers who excel in prowess and endurance. They wear rough black cloaks, the wool of which resembles the hair of goats.
As for their arms, certain of the Celtiberians, carry light shields like those of the Gauls, and certain carry circular wicker shields as large as an aspis [Greek shield], and about their shins and calves they wind greaves made of hair and on their heads they wear bronze helmets adorned with red crests(*Purple in other translations). The swords they wear are two-edged and wrought of excellent iron, and they also have dirks a span in length which they use in fighting at close quarters. And a peculiar practice is followed by them in the fashioning of their weapons; for they bury plates of iron in the ground and leave them there until in the course of time the rust has eaten out what is weak in the iron and what is left is only the most unyielding, and of this they then fashion excellent swords and such other objects as pertain to war. The weapon which has been fashioned in the manner described cuts through anything which gets in its way, for no shield or helmet or bone can withstand a blow from it, because of the exceptional quality of the iron. Able as they are to fight in two styles, they first carry on the contest on horseback, and when they have defeated the cavalry they dismount, and assuming the rôle of foot-soldiers they put up marvellous battles."
Diodorus Siculus 5,33(1st century BC)

[TKogumelos]

On 20/01/2022 at 7:36 AM, TKogumelos said:

Could you reuse the slinger design? It looks like one of the Despeñaperros figures (4th century BC) so it's pretty accurate

[TKogumelos]

Another of the Osuna reliefs. *One of the warriors wears greaves because he is probably Roman. (2nd to 1st centuries B.C.) 

Reconstruction by Ángel García Pinto below the title "Spanish Caetratus 1st century B.C." 

The artist doesn't understand the warrior's clothes like a padded armor more like a striped tunic. Also the Roman sources don't mention anything similar to a padded armor so we can only speculate about the representations. 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by TKogumelos

[wackyserious]

Unit update: Viriato

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

We really need a better gladius model. 

I feel like the side feather on the helmet could be non-player color, like the original Variato helmet, and also have better geometry.

[TKogumelos]

15 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Unit update: Viriato

We have evidence from the representations that the tribes of Spain and Portugal removed the cheek pieces from their helmets. This does not seem to have happened in the older models, the imported Gallic iron helmets, but yes in the helmets adopted after the Punic Wars.

Warrior of Sanfins. Portugal. (*sculpture made by Gallaecians.

we haven’t got much archeological data about the Lusitanians,

so we will have to settle studying their neighbors)

Viriato imagined by Carlos Fernández del Castillo with stolen Roman equipment,everything except the sword, that is from a peninsular model.

Another recreation by Johnny Shumate. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by TKogumelos

[wackyserious]

5 hours ago, TKogumelos said:

We have evidence from the representations that the tribes of Spain and Portugal removed the cheek pieces from their helmets. This does not seem to have happened in the older models, the imported Gallic iron helmets, but yes in the helmets adopted after the Punic Wars.

Warrior of Sanfins. Portugal. 

Viriato imagined by Carlos Fernández del Castillo with stolen Roman equipment,everything except the sword, that is from a peninsular model.

Another recreation by Johnny Shumate. 

We have Roman Montefortino without the cheek piece, I think that could easily be added.

That was what I am wondering about when I saw the Lusitanian mod helmets, it had a simple dome shaped helmet there and I was thinking if that was a Montefortino helmet, or an Iberian dome shaped helmet, or a Celtic Coolus helmet

[Genava55]

[wackyserious]

12 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Looks quite really close to the celt_helmet_montefortino_03.xml that we have in the game, but without the cheek piece and the intricate outer rim on the edges of the helmet below. Would that work if we use it?

[wackyserious]

Would this one do? @Genava55

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, wackyserious said:

Would this one do? @Genava55

That's not bad but I think there is a misunderstanding I want to clarify.

The typology of Montefortino helmets is a mess. Everybody call Montefortino a family of helmets that have very different features, conceptions and technology. This is due to a 19th legacy from early historians and it has spread everywhere.

First of all, a helmet in bronze is always different from a helmet in iron. This is simply not the same technology and the same conception. They could cast bronze, because bronze can be easily molten. Not iron, at that time the only way to make an iron helmet is to forge it, hammering iron sheets and giving it the desired shape through a long processing.

Finally, the Montefortino are made by various people. Romans, Etruscans, Celts, Phoenicians, Iberians and even Greeks at some point. It has a very long history and it has seen specific cultural development. The biggest difference is between the Celtic iron version and the Mediterranean version in bronze. Here's a link about the Roman Montefortino with several variants:

https://www.res-bellica.com/en/montefortino-type-helmets-a-chronology/

You should notice that the bottom and the neck guard are all straight:

While a Celtic Montefortino in iron is like this:

 

As you should see now, this is really two different helmets. The iron helmet made by the Celts has a neck guard going down, because it is a separated piece riveted to the bell. While in the bronze helmet made by the Romans, the neck guard and the bell are made of a single piece.

Those examples are simply to show you the most different features. Some Celtic helmets in iron don't have neck guard going down like this. There is even some Celtic Montefortino made in bronze. Those examples are simply the extreme cases to help you picture it.

But generally bronze Montefortino have this straight line. It has changed only at the very end of the Republican period (1st c. BC) when the Buggenum variant started to appear:

So back to the Iberian bronze Montefortino, it has clearly the same straight line feature:

The case of the iron helmet from Cigarralejo is bothering. Quesada-Sanz calls it a Celtic type, and it has been found in a purely Iberian context in south-east Spain:

However, I think this is a case of unintelligence due to the horrible mess constituting the Montefortino typology. This is not a Montefortino. Quesada-Sanz is mistaken and the only one having a clear mind on this one is Garcia-Jimenez. He has questioned the classification of this helmet as Montefortino and see similarity with the older Bockweiler type that has been found in Hallstatt.

Cigarralejo has no tip, it has a straight line at the bottom and it is made in iron. There is not a single comparable evidence from a Montefortino helmet. If it is a Celtic type, then the tip is missing. Which is possible because Garcia-Jimenez mentioned that the helmet has been poorly restored.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Genava55

[wackyserious]

Should I opt to name it as iber_helmet_cigarralejo? So no other variations other than different shades of iron.

To be clear this is a cigarralejo right?

Are there supposed to be motif details for this or is this simply plain as it is?

Can this be crested or ornamented on the top or have cheek guards?

[Genava55]

16 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

Should I opt to name it as iber_helmet_cigarralejo? So no other variations other than different shades of iron.

Yes, label it iber_helmet_cigarralejo it is better. This is a unique helmet in the current state, I would say it is better to not classify it as a montefortino.

16 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

To be clear this is a cigarralejo right?

Yes. Although the straight neck guard is difficult to reproduce in low poly.

16 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

Are there supposed to be motif details for this or is this simply plain as it is?

As I said this is a unique piece. There is no decoration visible and described.

 

16 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

Can this be crested or ornamented on the top or have cheek guards?

Nor any crest or cheek guards.

There is a kind of crest found at Cigarralejo but it doesn't match the helmet, it belongs to an organic helmet probably.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Genava55

[wackyserious]

4 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Yes. Although the straight neck guard is difficult to reproduce in low poly.

I can rework the texture details, it needs to be a bit more smooth on the edges right and add more volume into it? In what way does the neck guard need to be adjusted?

[TKogumelos]

48 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

I can rework the texture details, it needs to be a bit more smooth on the edges right and add more volume into it? In what way does the neck guard need to be adjusted?

Add to It a more round shape, without pointy corners like in this example:

Edited January 23, 2022 by TKogumelos

[wackyserious]

Less pointy top and added some volume on the neck guard ridge

[Genava55]

4 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

Less pointy top and added some volume on the neck guard ridge

That's fine like this.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, wackyserious said:

Less pointy top and added some volume on the neck guard ridge

He meant the back rim should follow along the sides. See: