Civ: Germans (Cimbri, Suebians, Goths)

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

If we accept the rock art is sufficient enough evidence, we must at least accept it is a minority of the boats. Most don't have sails.

fish and scout ships can be rowed only. Merchant and maybe arrow ships get a sail.

[Genava55]

1 minute ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

fish and scout ships can be rowed only. Merchant and maybe arrow ships get a sail.

Ok.

15 minutes ago, Obskiuras said:

We can do both, one without sails and one with sails. The one with sails it would be arrow ship and the other would be ramming ship.

I don't think a ramming ship is mandatory

[Genava55]

On 01/04/2025 at 4:36 AM, Obskiuras said:

Not really, i found some images that is supose to be germanic wolf warrior...

 

So what's the plan about it?

[Obskiuras]

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

So what's the plan about it?

Historical accuracy is important, so i'll leave up to you.

[Genava55]

7 hours ago, Obskiuras said:

Historical accuracy is important, so i'll leave up to you.

I don't think there was a specific troop wearing wolf skin and wolf head. Tacitus, Cassius Dio and Caesar don't mention it. The only place with a depiction of a sort of warriors wearing such items is on the Trajan column, but it is unclear if those are Germans or not. Those men are Roman auxiliaries in full armor, while the actual Germans fighting in front of them with their native weapons are bareheaded. Furthermore the current design is focusing on the Cimbri and pre-roman period. The berserkir/ulfhednar is mostly attested during the viking and post-viking period, in the Norse mythology and Norse laws. And nothing suggest they were a specific battle unit.

So for the moment, leave them aside.

Edited May 16 by Genava55

[Obskiuras]

8 hours ago, Genava55 said:

I don't think there was a specific troop wearing wolf skin and wolf head. Tacitus, Cassius Dio and Caesar don't mention it. The only place with a depiction of a sort of warriors wearing such items is on the Trajan column, but it is unclear if those are Germans or not. Those men are Roman auxiliaries in full armor, while the actual Germans fighting in front of them with their native weapons are bareheaded. Furthermore the current design is focusing on the Cimbri and pre-roman period. The berserkir/ulfhednar is mostly attested during the viking and post-viking period, in the Norse mythology and Norse laws. And nothing suggest they were a specific battle unit.

So for the moment, leave them aside.

I agree.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Ok @Genava55 do you have a possible idea for a raiding type unit? The gameplay design is somewhat focused on infantry mobility, so a faster, lightly armored, infantry unit is needed to replace the wolf warrior.

i suppose we could go fairly generic and call it Crimbri raider or something.

[Deicide4u]

@real_tabasco_sauce An bare-chested Axeman that deals hack and crush damage? You couldn't be more generic than that, but they are barbarians, after all.

[Genava55]

 

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Ok @Genava55 do you have a possible idea for a raiding type unit? The gameplay design is somewhat focused on infantry mobility, so a faster, lightly armored, infantry unit is needed to replace the wolf warrior.

i suppose we could go fairly generic and call it Crimbri raider or something.

Cimbri/Teutones/Ambrones raiders could work. Marauders too.

Otherwise, axemen, clubmen... It is possible for some of them to have a bear skin as a cloak, just avoid the bear head.

Spoiler

 

[Obskiuras]

17 hours ago, Genava55 said:

 

Cimbri/Teutones/Ambrones raiders could work. Marauders too.

Otherwise, axemen, clubmen... It is possible for some of them to have a bear skin as a cloak, just avoid the bear head.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I would add an elite unit of spearman, just like the Wodanaz spear from Rome 2 Total War.

[Obskiuras]

And maybe too a swordman elite unit, like this:

 

[Genava55]

1 minute ago, Obskiuras said:

And maybe too a swordman elite unit, like this:

But it has to be consistent and coherent with other civilizations. Too often, there's the immature temptation to want to put everything in every new civ, and this quickly becomes absurd and unbalanced. The Kushites underwent a similar development.

9 minutes ago, Obskiuras said:

I would add an elite unit of spearman, just like the Wodanaz spear from Rome 2 Total War.

I think it is something to keep for a later version of the Germans. Currently, it is based on the Cimbri. When there will be the later Germans, we could add the Cherusci pikemen. But in the meantime, let's focus on the Cimbri.

[Genava55]

On 10/05/2025 at 6:51 PM, Genava55 said:

This is what Europa Barbarorum did for the Suebi, they took inspiration from one of these bracteate to make a simpler version (top right):

By the way, Rome 2 Total War also got its inspiration from EBII for the Suebi

Edit: you can find more info and images there:

https://gelmir.com/compendium_item/gold-bracteates/

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Genava55

[Obskiuras]

On 05/04/2025 at 8:50 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Ok @Genava55

I addressed your suggestions just now in gitea.

The basic units looks awful, the shield most have hand protection made of wood, and basic units needs more variety in the clothing. For the shields, the basic units most have hand protection made of wood and the mid and elite units most have hand protection made of iron. Also, i want to design new models for the shields.

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I suppose I could add some more variety by incorporating some Brit or Gaul textures, but in general the basic units are supposed to look basic. All the other civs have pretty simple looking basic units, with advanced and elite units looking more cool and well equipped.

i can’t work on much of anything for the time being, so if you want to design some new textures and some new meshes for the shields, go for it. However, what we really need in order to move forward with the civ are ships and the emblem.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I like that design @Genava55 but I’d prefer to stick to the original gold form.

If we use the face on the ritual pot, it would also make sense to use that dark gold hue.

[Genava55]

6 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I like that design @Genava55 but I’d prefer to stick to the original gold form.

I understand but the idea from EBII was to make a speculative simpler interpretation of a later design, trying to fit it into their timeframe. Since the golden bracteates are generally from the migration period.

7 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

If we use the face on the ritual pot, it would also make sense to use that dark gold hue.

It is from the Dejbjerg wagon.

[Genava55]

16 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I like that design @Genava55 but I’d prefer to stick to the original gold form.

By the way the original:

Edit:

You can find more info there: https://gelmir.com/compendium_item/gold-bracteates/

Edited 2 hours ago by Genava55

[Deicide4u]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

in general the basic units are supposed to look basic

100% this. 

37 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

By the way the original:

Looks perfect.

[Obskiuras]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I suppose I could add some more variety by incorporating some Brit or Gaul textures, but in general the basic units are supposed to look basic. All the other civs have pretty simple looking basic units, with advanced and elite units looking more cool and well equipped.

i can’t work on much of anything for the time being, so if you want to design some new textures and some new meshes for the shields, go for it. However, what we really need in order to move forward with the civ are ships and the emblem.

There is no justification for shields not have hand protection, the basic units most have in their shields hand protection made of wood as shown in the photos, mid and elite units can have in their shields hand protection made of iron.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Are you talking about the shield boss?

[Obskiuras]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Are you talking about the shield boss?

I´m talking about the shield of the basic units.

[Genava55]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Are you talking about the shield boss?

@Obskiuras has a point in the sense a shield generally requires some volume for the handle.

[Genava55]

Here some schematic illustrations based on Celtic shields: