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Implementing something to hellban users is work. Work that could be spent on things that benefit everyone, banning users isn't that hard.

(As you can read in the lobby subject (text on the right) there is no n-th offense stuff anymore. If someone doesn't like how the lobby is run they are free to host their own, it's not like there is no readme detailing the setup.)

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Implementing something to hellban users is work. Work that could be spent on things that benefit everyone, banning users isn't that hard.

are you sure that you wish the official wfg lobby's rules to be arbitrary? having a hard set of rules makes moderating easier, not harder. This is your choice though.

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are you sure that you wish the official wfg lobby's rules to be arbitrary? having a hard set of rules makes moderating easier, not harder. This is your choice though.

Post the rules in a read me file in the lobby where we can point to them saves some hassles in most disputes if someone does not read them it's their fault not ours,keep it simple much easier for all involved.

Enjoy the Choice :)

You need to read through and agree to the rules when you register for the lobby, and unlike EULAs etc it's just a couple of paragraphs, so there's no reason why people shouldn't be able to read them and understand them. It's probably a good idea to make them accessible at a later date as well though, to make it easier to refer to them in case people are uncertain about them. The existing Terms of Use/Terms of Service are as follows:

0 A.D. Empires Ascendant Multiplayer Lobby Terms of Service

Definitions:
* The "service" is the 0 A.D. Empires Ascendant Multiplayer Lobby provided by Wildfire Games (WFG).
* "You" are the user of the service.
* "We" are the collective of all Wildfire Games (WFG) team members.
* "Rating" refers to the process of analyzing various user statistics for the purpose of generating a single comprehensive score.
* "Moderate" refers to the process of enforcing usage policies.
By using the service you agree to:
1. Follow all usage policies.
2. Allow user identifiable statistics to be gathered for the purposes of rating, user profiles, and community statistics.
We also reserve the right to:
1. Moderate the service.
2. Appoint others to moderate the service.
3. Discontinue or interrupt service at any time with or without prior announcement.
4. Change the service at any time with or without announcement.
5. Delete any and all service data at any time with or without announcement.
6. Collect any or all user identifiable statistics at any time without consent for:
a. Private analysis by Wildfire Games (WFG) team members and their affiliates.
b. Anonymized public release by Wildfire Games (WFG) team members.
7. Change this document in any way; at any time; on the condition that the user of the service is given adequate notice of the change (the definition of adequate notice will be determined at the time by a panel of Wildfire Games (WFG) team members).

0 A.D. Empires Ascendant Multiplayer Lobby Terms of Use

Definitions:
* The "service" is the 0 A.D. Empires Ascendant Multiplayer Lobby provided by Wildfire Games (WFG).
* "You" are the user of the service.
* "Impersonate" refers to the action in which you attempt to exploit another's identity for your own purposes.
* "Spam" refers to irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent to a large number of recipients.
* "Rating" refers to the per-user comprehensive score.
* "Ranked games" refers to games in which rating changing statistics are tracked.
You agree to:
1. Only create one account per unique user on the service unless authorized by a Wildfire Games (WFG) team member.
2. Not post profane statements, rude humor, pornographic content, or discriminatory comments on the service.
3. Not purposefully demean the worth of others using the service.
4. Not use the service to promote specific goods, services, or products.
5. Not impersonate other users of the service.
6. Not spam the service.
7. Not attempt to artificially adjust any user of the service's rating or any of the statistics which impact it. (Examples of this are, but are not limited to: cheating in ranked games, reverse engineering the service, and taking advantage of other users of the service.)
8. Allow yourself to be removed from the service if at any time a moderator determines your behavior is not consistent with these rules.
We also reserve the right to:
1. Change this document in any way; at any time; on the condition that the user of the service is given adequate notice of the change (the definition of adequate notice will be determined at the time by a panel of Wildfire Games (WFG) team members).

It's definitely possible that it might be improved for all I know, but it's certainly clear enough in the above case.

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Clear and concise no ambiguities and placing it as part of the lobby registration makes it universal for all users now to roll it out and watch the fur fly ;)

Enjoy the Choice :)

It has been out at least since Alpha 17. I think it was with that release it was introduced, or possibly 16, but I just checked 17 so I'm 100% certain it's in that one at the very least :)

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You need to read through and agree to the rules when you register for the lobby, and unlike EULAs etc it's just a couple of paragraphs, so there's no reason why people shouldn't be able to read them and understand them. It's probably a good idea to make them accessible at a later date as well though, to make it easier to refer to them in case people are uncertain about them. The existing Terms of Use/Terms of Service are as follows:

It's definitely possible that it might be improved for all I know, but it's certainly clear enough in the above case.

This is fine, but no clear list of punishments and arbitrations. That is what I am talking about. The EULA and TOS are incomplete and leave room for too much ambiguous.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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Why should anything be considered a punishment? Those are the rules you have to follow if you want to use our lobby service (which nobody is forcing you to use). Ignore them and you aren't using the lobby service anymore. (Anything that isn't an outright ban is because whoever is moderating that incident is being nice.)

Apart from that I find it interesting that some of the most vocal about this issue have never been seen on the lobby...

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Guilty as charged leper just not fast enough at building an early economy I'd get beaten badly so no multi-player yet getting stomped by the AI is bad enough :stinker: But I have been moderating/admin a forum for about 6 years now thought I'd put my 1/2 cent in.

Enjoy the Choice :)

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..apart from lobby trolls, imho those guys who enter your hosted game and start trolling (for fun, or because game is already full) disturb more, not leaving the game when asked and constantly rejoin when game is running.

I really would like to have a in_game (pre_game chat) kick option for the host (@ leper: would send you my last goats) to handle not wanted guests .... preferably combined with a lobby chat ignore option.

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Apart from that I find it interesting that some of the most vocal about this issue have never been seen on the lobby...

I have been on the lobby. But I am just advising course of action to make things easier for you and more clear for people who may intentionally or unintentionally break the rules. Clear guideline for punishments are a good thing for both users and moderators. It is funny that you resist this.

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I have been on the lobby. But I am just advising course of action to make things easier for you and more clear for people who may intentionally or unintentionally break the rules. Clear guideline for punishments are a good thing for both users and moderators. It is funny that you resist this.

The rule is clear enough (break the rules = you're not allowed in the lobby any more), but perhaps we should add some explanations to some of the text as it's intended towards being clear in a legal sense rather than in a way that is easy for everyone to understand. It's not like any of it isn't things people should understand and follow without reading a single word of user agreements etc, if people behave they are following the rules.

You may of course disagree with the rules and think that there should be different rules, but that's another thing than saying that the current rules aren't clear enough.

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I think it is very clear that I do not disagree with the rules. i am saying it is not at all clear what the punishments and more imprtantly the level of infraction necessary for various punishment from the tos and eula. "break rules = can'tplay here" is not very precise. It allowa ambiguus and arbitrary punishment for infraction.I am simply suggesting that you make the eula and tos more precise in this thing so that your base is covered. If I call someone a whitey is that as bad as the others? Who makes the determination and how many times can i say this? is limey as bad as some others? How many partial bans triggers a permaban? Are there guidelines for redress? None of that is in there, so you make it up as you go or what? Why are my suggestions controversial. They should not be. If you ever finish the game you may have thousands of players playing at once. Best to solve these things now instead of then.

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I think it is very clear that I do not disagree with the rules. i am saying it is not at all clear what the punishments and more imprtantly the level of infraction necessary for various punishment from the tos and eula. "break rules = can'tplay here" is not very precise. It allowa ambiguus and arbitrary punishment for infraction.I am simply suggesting that you make the eula and tos more precise in this thing so that your base is covered. If I call someone a whitey is that as bad as the others? Who makes the determination and how many times can i say this? is limey as bad as some others? How many partial bans triggers a permaban? Are there guidelines for redress? None of that is in there, so you make it up as you go or what? Why are my suggestions controversial. They should not be. If you ever finish the game you may have thousands of players playing at once. Best to solve these things now instead of then.

First you say that you think the current rules are ok, and then you introduce rules which are not mentioned in the current rules. It's ok if you don't agree with the rules, but it's hard to achieve mutual understanding if we don't "speak the same language". As the rules stand now I don't see us having anything like partial bans/different levels of bans etc, which may or may not be a good thing, but would be a new rule.

The only arbitrariness is in that different moderators might not implement the rules as strictly as they are written here, but rather might be more lenient. This might be covered by e.g. having temporary bans etc and having clear rules for them. But again, that's changing the rules/introducing new rules. Which is fine to suggest if that is what you are suggesting. I guess what might be an issue is someone e.g. posting some angry comments (which might not directly violate the user agreement) that would be annoying to the point of requiring action by moderators, then it might be useful to have a less severe punishment than a complete and full and permanent ban. I'm not 100% convinced that it's a good route to go though as that's more likely to introduce ambiguousness. On the other hand there will always be some kind of ambiguousness as it's impossible to completely cover everything in perfect detail, so perhaps having rules that include other options than a permaban might reduce a bit of it (since moderators have more options for how to deal with things that aren't as bad).

The rules possibly being ambiguous in some more specific cases might be an issue though, that's true. The issue with becoming too specific though is that then someone will say "but word x is not mentioned in the rules, now you can't ban me". If you have any direct suggestions for how to improve the text, feel free to mention them.

About redress: that's certainly a genuine concern and something that should be added to the rules. Imo directing people to the forums is probably the best idea, but I'm not sure how to best phrase that. There's also the matter of privacy/integrity, but as it's really up to the user in question to reveal as much or as little about themselves (and we can remove any unnecessary mentions of other players), that should hopefully not be an issue. It should probably be described along the lines of: "Please include information that explains why you think that your actions aren't enough to make you deserve a ban. To make it easier for us you can mention at what time it happened, but there is no need to mention exactly what was said as we have logs and there is no need to bring the conflict to the forums."

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