ROTE Xù yuē 17 - Impression and suggestion on historical accuracy

[wolflance]

I am actually not so sure about champion soldiers for the Chinese from the gameplay POV. I mean, they have a broad lineup and are able to respond to almost all situations (they nearly always have unit that can make a stand). Combine that with the other civ bonuses (strong farming economy and walls, unique techs) and you already have a strong faction. Give them killer champion units and you have a Chinese supremacy (I think).

Agreed. Because Han faction is balanced, any sort of champion unit might make them too powerful in that particular department.

Could champion unit be balanced with price and/or build time?

[Stan`]

Oh well so it´s basically redoing the armor from scratch... Dunno tthen.

[Alekusu]

Agreed. Because Han faction is balanced, any sort of champion unit might make them too powerful in that particular department.

Could champion unit be balanced with price and/or build time?

Agreed too.

However in a personal point of view, in all the RTS I've played, one of the pleasure of going to a new phase/age it to access to new units (and not only siege). Would be kind of sad if we don't have this in this Mod.

Can we imagine that one of the unit from phase 2 goes to phase 3 ? (their phase 2 is imo too strong right now, as niek said they can deal with anything and don't have any weak point in phase 2)

Edited February 25, 2015 by Alekusu

[niektb]

I can remember suggestions of a Border Fortress (smaller fortress). Might it be an idea to add that building and move some of the barrack units to that Fortress? (as to simulate the so called Border army => where was that topic, wolflance?) (given that that Fortress is a phase 3 building)

[Stan`]

I can remember suggestions of a Border Fortress (smaller fortress). Might it be an idea to add that building and move some of the barrack units to that Fortress? (as to simulate the so called Border army => where was that topic, wolflance?) (given that that Fortress is a phase 3 building)

I like that idea, though who is gonna make that building ?

Also, I don't see how that changes things, ROTE have everything but skirmishers, adding one two or three new units will make it even worse, won't it ?

[niektb]

I didn't say new units. I said move existing units from the barracks to that Border Fortress. (So you have to: 1. Phase up to City Phase 2. Build a new (fairly expensive) building before you can train those units)

[wolflance]

Oh well so it´s basically redoing the armor from scratch... Dunno tthen.

Sorry I never imagined it would be that much work...current one is very good already, no need to waste productivity on some dots then.

Edited February 25, 2015 by wolflance

[Stan`]

Great I'm only missing one feathered helmet, and some decorations, not sure if really useful though.

Do you have time to download and test rote ? (Ie open it in atlas and look at all the units)

[wolflance]

Great I'm only missing one feathered helmet, and some decorations, not sure if really useful though.

Do you have time to download and test rote ? (Ie open it in atlas and look at all the units)

Connection at my place is very bad, so it might take some time to finish download it.

Can you give me a download link of the most current build?

[niektb]

https://github.com/0ADMods/han_china

[wolflance]

I can remember suggestions of a Border Fortress (smaller fortress). Might it be an idea to add that building and move some of the barrack units to that Fortress? (as to simulate the so called Border army => where was that topic, wolflance?) (given that that Fortress is a phase 3 building)

I believe it is this nomenclature thread.

http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19178

The 2 handed swordmen could be for anti-cavalry. There are mentions of the zhanmajian (horse cutting sword) dating back to the Han so the unit can be based off that.

Yeah, “Horse-chopping swordsman” is definitely a kickass name for a champion unit.

Not sure about it translating into anti-cavalry advantage though. It is still a sword after all.

Edited February 26, 2015 by wolflance

[wolflance]

Quick review on the SVN:

1) Armour with circled part is ahistorical.

2) This armour with 'detached' sleeve should be replaced with other armour.

3) Quiver should be on the right hip (common practice), or on the back (found on some Han mural). Also chech #1 of this thread on the Han quiver design.

Reference

Check the left horsemen for the placement of quiver.

Reference 2

Modern artwork, but mostly historically accurate. Note the quiver.

4) (If have time) This two types of hat and helmet can be combined into a new one, for added variation.

5) Some advanced swordsman infantry are unarmoured.

6) Refer to my first post, I don't think champron are used by the Han cavalry.

Note: There are champron recorded in Western Han text, we just don't know what it look like...

(Note to self) Maybe I should go looking for Han period horse halters/birdles/saddle design.

7) I always thought this outfit is for champion unit?

8) Older version of the halberds are still present on some unit.

9) Seemingly all cavalry are using halberd ? No spear?

10) Spear and halberd should be roughly the same length.

11) Lack of helmet even for (some) advanced and elite cavalry unit.

12) I believe this is still WIP...but why rounded farm?

Edited February 28, 2015 by wolflance

[wolflance]

Also, some very rough size comparison between a small Han shield, large Han shield and a Roman Scutum.

The center picture is taken from a downward angle so the shield appears a bit smaller than it really,but average ancient Chinese might be shorter than an average modern male, so I guess that even out.

Edited February 26, 2015 by wolflance

[Stan`]

Actually armor is not detached It's just that it's ready for new units mesh

What kind of combination should it be ?

I'll remove the armor with circled part, we thought it was the only variation of it that wasn't historical.

Do you happen to have any other reference for the quiver ? I don't really understand how it is.

I will fix halberds, I actually didn't know if it was a mix of halberds and spear or something else.

Will remove the champron.

They should have an helmet, i'll fix that.

12) You should enable glsl to see the water. However they will be replaced by square fields, see related poll.

Edited February 26, 2015 by stanislas69

[niektb]

[...]

7) I always thought this outfit is for champion unit?

For the elite archers to be precise

[wolflance]

@stanislas69

What kind of combination should it be ?

I mean instead of "open-top helmet + hair", there could be another variation that is "open top helmet + leather hat".

Speaking of helmet, I am really looking forward to this one

Another thing is that I noticed a older version of the shield still lying around the barrack building.

Do you happen to have any other reference for the quiver ? I don't really understand how it is.

Instead of the usual cylinder or soft bag arrow container we usually associate with quiver, Han period Chinese make it into some sort of boxy shape.

The quiver is usually carried on the right hip (see below), so that the archer can draw a new arrow (with his right hand) easily.

Modern Japanese archery also used something similar.

Alternately, the quiver can be carried on the back, see below:

Han period mural of a armored crossbowman spanning his crossbow. You can see the arrows fan out evenly from his back.

Quiver on back.

@niektb

May I suggest make it into a champion unit? A sudden color change on promotion may look out of place (haven't tried it in game yet)

Edited February 26, 2015 by wolflance

[wolflance]

Sry for double post.

Quick question: Is there any historical basis on the thick belt-like clothing on these units (middle) ? I don't recall seeing that on the Han Dynasty terracotta, but I could be wrong though.

AFAIK, the pao du (袍肚), a sarong-like tube clothing commonly depicted on Chinese warriors are only found on Sui-Tang and later Dynasties.

(If it is not overly complicated to implement) Is it possible to arrange so that melee unit has "teamcolor cloth" , while ranged unit has "white cloth + teamcolor trim" ?

Not sure if this is the final version of Han Xin...but that sword should be on the left hip.

Edited February 27, 2015 by wolflance

[Stan`]

mmmh not sure what you mean with trim

About han xin I saw it that way on some drawing so i thought it should be on that side. îll fix it.

[niektb]

(If it is not overly complicated to implement) Is it possible to arrange so that melee unit has "teamcolor cloth" , while ranged unit has "white cloth + teamcolor trim" ?

Unfortunately your suggestion makes crossbowman hard to distinguish from normal archer (while equal colored melee and ranged units are easily distinguishable from each other because of the shields and a completely different weapon)

[...]

@niektb

May I suggest make it into a champion unit? A sudden color change on promotion may look out of place (haven't tried it in game yet)

It looks fine in-game actually. Edited February 27, 2015 by niektb

[wolflance]

Forgive my English...I mean the "left cloth" for melee unit (swordsman, spearmen, cavalry swordsman, cavalry archer) and "right cloth" for ranged unit (bowmen, crossbow, ranged cavalry).

Currently swordsman and sword cavalry are using the "right cloth".

@niektb

Oh...I think I start to understand now. Unit that is too uniform become hard to tell apart. I will try to compare with units from manila faction(s) before I make any more suggestion.

Edited January 7, 2017 by stanislas69

[Ayakashi]

So will this faction have champion units or not? IMHO I think we still need them, since all other factions have them and the unit roster does seem quite boring by comparison especially during late game. I understand the point about how existing units already cover all roles so maybe to balance things out a couple may need to be cut, nerfed or re-purposed? Another possibility is to have champion units trainable only from a palace type structure not dissimilar to the Persian one of which only one can be built. This would reflect their historical role as defenders of the imperial capitals.

As for what they are I would suggest:

羽林騎/Yulin Cavalry: An armoured but slower cavalry archer that can also melee with sword.

斬馬劍/Zhanmajian Swordsmen: Two handed swordsmen for anti cavalry and heavy infantry.

將軍/General: Works like a 'mini-hero'. Fights like a sword cavalry but has a small aura that boosts the efficiency of nearby units. Maybe only 3-5 can be trained?

Edited February 27, 2015 by Ayakashi

[wolflance]

I just found some new information about the Han Dynasty archery, apparently the ordinary "cylinder quiver" was used as well.

Han Dynasty bow and quiver found at Niya Site at Tarim Basin.

The bow was found together with this archery bracer, which become the national treasure of China.

This reconstruction of hǔ bēn （虎贲）palace guard used a replica of the bracer.

So apparently cylinder quiver (carried on hip) is used for arrow, while box quiver (mounted uptight on the back) is used for crossbow bolt. Could be useful as a distinguishing feature between archer and crossbowman too.

I revised my post on the first page accordingly.

Update：Horse

Advanced

Elite

Han Dynasty horse decoration basically amounts to lots and lots of tassels. Yeah. More elite horse = more tassel, I guess.

Reference

Updated all my first page's posts accordingly.

Edited February 28, 2015 by wolflance

[Stan`]

@wolflance @Ayakashi Hans definitely had horse archers, but did they have foot archers ? The only bows I can find are for cavalry.

[wolflance]

On 1/8/2017 at 0:32 AM, stanislas69 said:

@wolflance @Ayakashi Hans definitely had horse archers, but did they have foot archers ? The only bows I can find are for cavalry.

Wow, I have not come here for some time. Sorry for the very very late reply.

Yes, Han definitely had foot archer. Like many Eastern cultures, Chinese was very, very, VERY fond of archery (Chinese was the last civilization to give up archery as a battlefield weapon), so there's no lack of archer of any forms. That being said, if you want to trim down the unit roster, then foot archer should indeed be the first to go.

 

I think I said this years before, but one problem for the Han RTS faction is that they are too "complete". The Chinese just had......basically every unit imaginable. Everything from spear (foot and mounted), halberd/ji (foot and mounted), sword+shield (foot and mounted), archer (foot and mounted), crossbow (foot and mounted), chariot, war wagon, wagon-mounted siege crossbow, battering ram, trebuchet, heavy siege crossbow, siege tower...Chinese was also one of the first civilizations to have two-hand sword (only Indian predates them).

(As a side note, they apparently also used full iron javelin like the celts, but not in large number.).

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by wolflance

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 10/29/2014 at 3:03 AM, wolflance said:

That bald guy is a cóng people (賨人 pronounced 'chong' instead of 'kon'), foreign (barbarian) troops employed by Han army as melee infantry (and cannon fodder).

 

These guys?

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Phunoi_people