Ranged Cavalry too strong

[iNcog]

I think this is an issue which deserves its own thread really.

Basically ranged cavalry skirmishers (the javelin throwers) are too strong. They can't really be countered, that's the big issue. I won't pretend to have played the game as much as a lot of others here; in fact I don't even know if cavalry archers and cavalry skirmishers are the same unit type.

Either way, it's pretty straightforward. Cav skirms hard counter archers and swordscav, on paper. So that's all fine. The thing is, they're only countered by Spearmen and elephants... To put thing simply, you're taking a fast, mobile and ranged unit and you're making it so that the only unit which counters this fast, mobile unit is a slow, melee unit. I'm not going to consider elephants here since I'm talking early game, when you can make skirmcav right off the bat. skirmcav soft-counter anything melee and that unfortunately includes spearmen, the unit which is supposed to counter skirmcav.

So this is a pretty big issue. I've won games by making ONLY skirmcav and just using micro to hit and run with them. I can straight up attack anything else ranged. The arguably best unit to take out skirmcav would be skirmishers (high attack, low range, no?), yet skirmishers don't have the multiplier against skirmcav and skirmcav have the inherit speed advantage. Basically skirmcavs have the punch to take on anything ranged and the mobility to harass anything melee to death.

I think giving skirmishers a bonus vs skirmcav might help. But as of right now skirmcav is ridiculous.

[Sanguivorant]

I agree, and in most games you often find that the fastest ranged unit is the most powerful.

One time I was playing against a player who massed ranged cavalry on me. Making spearmen only helped if I managed to corner the cavalry, but because the player was good at micro, that was really hard to do. Eventually, what I had to do is wall up sections of my base and put a lot of watch towers in my economic areas.

Watch towers and walls are the best way to counter ranged cavalry, which is why Iberians can counter them the best.

A fast ranged cavalry rush almost always screws up your opponent's economy. Every game I play, I send at least five ranged cavalry early on.

I do find that javelineers are a pretty effective counter as well, when massed of course.

[iNcog]

I think that skirms, being a cost-efficient ranged infantry unit that isn't countered by skirmcav, is probably your best bet vs skirmcav indeed. but it's a soft-counter at best and even then, if the skirmcav player is smart he uses the mobility of skirmcav to hit anything he wants. he also mixes in whatever counters skirms.

you get the idea ^^ skirmcav need a true hard counter. buildings work, i can see why, but that isn't good enough. buildings can be used as anti-skirmcav-raids but they don't let you push your opponent's base.

so yeh idk, give skirms a true damage multiplier vs skirm cav or something. but atm skirmcav too stronk

[hhyloc]

I believe this is a known issue and there're things being done to fix that. One possible change to balance to unit counter is that each unit type will be better differentiated, namely skirmishers will hit harder but have lower range and attack speed(?) while archers will be weaker but boast greater attack range, and I think this extend to cavalry as well. Counter will still exist I think but less promient.

[iNcog]

I believe this is a known issue and there're things being done to fix that. One possible change to balance to unit counter is that each unit type will be better differentiated, namely skirmishers will hit harder but have lower range and attack speed(?) while archers will be weaker but boast greater attack range, and I think this extend to cavalry as well. Counter will still exist I think but less promient.

I'm not sure about the idea of softening the counter system as I believe it might make some units "simply" better than others. Either way, we'll see what comes out. If they keep a hard counter system then it skirmcav needs some sorta nerf or a ranged unit that hard counters it.

[borg_]

Cavalry skirmishers are only a problem early in the game, then are easily countered.
Would you like to make some changes, decrease the attack from 25 to 20, would remove automatic indentation when the enemy comes near, and enhance the lives of 75 women, they are dying for them easily.

Sorry my English.

And maybe slightly decrease Their speed racing

[iNcog]

Which unit do you use to counter skirmcav in the later game? Skirms?

[hhyloc]

I'm not the best player, but my guess would be your own skirmisher cavalry in compound with proper towers placement at resource gathering sites.

[iNcog]

I'm not the best player, but my guess would be your own skirmisher cavalry in compound with proper towers placement at resource gathering sites.

That doesn't get you map control though.

Also if the other civ has stronger skirm cav than you do, you're in somewhat of a pickle.

Edited May 25, 2014 by iNcog

[sanderd17]

Some versions ago, tower pushing was a very good tactic. It could only be prevented with a rush.

As you see, balancing changes every version.

[iNcog]

That's good to hear. ^^

Have you guys ever considered going small hotfixes though? Like Alpha 16.1 or something? Before alpha 17

[sanderd17]

We already release every few months. Small hotfixes aren't desirable. Certainly no balancing hotfixes, as that means everyone has to download and install the game again.

Maybe when we only install pyrogenesis, and see 0 A.D. as one of the mods, and pyrogenesis has a good mod manager to download and install new compatible mods, we might uncouple the two releases. But this won't happen soon.

[iNcog]

OK, makes sense to me. thanks for answering ^^

[tomwm]

At the very beginning of the game, I built 4 ranged calvalry and then sent them in with the one calvalry I get at the beginning of the game. I was able to kill all of Petra bot's villagers within 5 minutes of starting the game (on Hard). I think that ranged calvalry are extremely unbalanced because people shouldn't be able to win within 5 minutes just by rushing like this.

[marioxcc]

I agree.

Ranged cavalry is too strong. It really ruins the game that with some faction combinations you (Generic you) can win with minimal strategy because you have available those nasty units from phase 1 and the enemy has nothing to effectively counter them early on. In my experience the best (Or not‑so‑bad) units to attempt to counter cavalry skirmishers are infantry skirmishers and melee cavalry, but an army of those wouldn't deter a equally expensive army of cavalry skirmishers. I would like to read about your tactics to counter ranged cavalry.

The problem comes from the fact than ranged cavalry can inflict a lot of damage without taking any, or only minimal. Hence, it comes to my mind than there are some alternatives to improve this aspect of game balance regarding the aforesaid unit type: reduce range or reduce HP. Increasing civic center range would also enable the garrisoning tactic which already works to counter the rest of units types (Hence we don't see people rushing with infantry, and melee cavalry rushes has a significant but limited effectiveness).

I would also love to see a feature which allows a temporary cease of fire to be in effect from the beginning up to a configurable time limit determined a‑priori. The cease of fire wouldn't prevent all kind of attacks, but only would prevent units from attacking and possibly entering the area around the initial bases For instance, nobody would be able to attack inside the territory of the starting CC of their enemies for the first 5 min of game. This would be of course, optional, and would have the effect of allowing more preparation so as to allow a longer and more strategic game rather than one than ends in a rush in the first 5 min. Regards.

EDIT: formatting.

Edited May 29, 2014 by marioxcc

[Mythos_Ruler]

The "ceasefire" thing you mentioned has been in the game design since day 1, it's just been a low priority. The idea would be to add continuous attrition damage to enemy units who cross into your territory. This would only be in effect, as you say, for a limited amount of time at the beginning of a match, potentially configurable by the match's host.

[Stan`]

Wouldn't it be better to set the players as allies, and then as enemies ?

[Mythos_Ruler]

Wouldn't it be better to set the players as allies, and then as enemies ?

How would that be "much better" than a real full-functioning ceasefire/no-rush feature?

[borg_]

Rush should be part of any strategy game.
I prefer a simple balance in some units, nothing more.

Edited May 30, 2014 by borg_

[Mythos_Ruler]

Rush should be part of any strategy game.

I prefer a simple balance in some units, nothing more.

Others would prefer a slightly different dynamic. That's why these things would be options, not mandatory. But now we're off topic. Obviously cav javs need rebalanced. I think for now we could try reducing their attack by 5 and see how that works out.

[borg_]

Also remove the automatic indentation, and slightly increase the attack time of the animation.
These are some of the changes I propose.

[iNcog]

Others would prefer a slightly different dynamic. That's why these things would be options, not mandatory. But now we're off topic. Obviously cav javs need rebalanced. I think for now we could try reducing their attack by 5 and see how that works out.

Exactly, a small nerf such as this one is just the way to go, at least in my opinion. Rush strategies in general aren't difficult to hold off, especially if you take the time to scout. This is especially true since early game your harvesters can fend for themselves. However this only works if you can make the counter to whatever unit your opponent decided to make. So an Archer rush can be dealt with melee cav for example, however a skirmcav rush are much more difficult to hold off given that no unit hard counters them, you only have skirms which soft-counter them. Even then, it's difficult to catch skirm cav.

There's no need for a cease-fire aspect in the game, all you need to do is make sure one unit isn't problematic.

[Mythos_Ruler]

There's no need for a cease-fire aspect in the game, all you need to do is make sure one unit isn't problematic.

The "ceasefire" thing isn't meant for balance, but for those who want a "no-rush" option. It's unfortunate that it was mentioned at all in this thread. lol

[iNcog]

That actually has huge potential though. NR for 40 minutes was something implemented by ES in Aoe3. It was immensely popular. Treaty games were kind of looked down upon by sup players but managing your boom just right to get the best possible set-up in 40 minutes was actually a tricky thing to do.

So it's not something to look down upon at all

As long as it's not in regular games ofc

[Sanguivorant]

We could always make towers available in the early game, but just make them a bit weaker until the town phase.

Or if ranged cavalry can only be made in the town phase, and your village phase cavalry is melee, that would also help balance things out, since melee cavalry has to at least get close to attack, so it can be countered by accompanying your chicks with spearmen (lol).