[Random map] Schwarzwald

[Radagast.]

./maps/random/rmgen/library.js:function createObjectGroups(placer, player, constraint, num, retryFactor)

retryFactor: how often to try to find a place, then abort (no matter if num object groups created or not).

  40 function scaleByMapSize(min, max) 41 { 42     return min + ((max-min) * (getMapSize()-MIN_MAP_SIZE) / (MAX_MAP_SIZE-MIN_MAP_SIZE)); 43 }

What could be the units here? Meters?

I also wonder if the constraint of 0 stayClasses(clWater, 0/*distance*/) is correct for all cases as I thought tiles were 4x4 and we hence had to use 2 to find a tile's origin in all cases.

Not sure though, so better wait for one who actually has experience with that. Perhaps FeXoR if he not just the moment fights the different water levels.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Hephaestion

[Mythos_Ruler]

I think the starting stone and metal mines need to be farther from the starting Civic Center, so that players must build a dropsite to gather from them. You don't need them so close to the Civic Center because in village phase the emphasis is on wood and food.*

Each starting point needs a nice big patch of trees.

*This goes for all of our random maps, which for some reason plop a stone mine and metal mine right next to the Civic Center.

[FeXoR]

Mythos_Ruler: I somehow agree with that but some civs need metal for citizen solders (Which is questionable in the first place IMO).

And if the next stone/metal mines near the start locations should not be inside the "base space" (like a circle with 20-30 tiles radius) where should they be? The other resources not inside the base radius are in general randomly distribute across the map.

On the other hand the Iberian civilization bonus walls will not be that strong if no metal/stone is inside to be gathered (which I consider a good thing).

I don't mind that much and the necessity to scout for them but some PPL already complained about having different ratios of resources distributed on different maps. If you have concrete ideas/design propositions PLZ let me know.

To the map concerning this:

AFAIK the stone/metal mine derivation comes from Deep Forest. When taking away the resources at the start locations it might be good to add 1-2 of them per payer (should be easy).

Edited May 26, 2014 by FeXoR

[Zeta1127]

Stone and metal need to be available at starting locations for those civilizations with swordsmen and slingers in the village phase, though I can see them generally being near the edge of the starting locations in order to encourage the use of storehouses.

[Mythos_Ruler]

A look at my skirmish maps and a few play-throughs should dispel doubts about what I'm saying.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I don't mind that much and the necessity to scout for them but some PPL already complained about having different ratios of resources distributed on different maps. If you have concrete ideas/design propositions PLZ let me know.

I think there should be standardization of resource availability and quantities, but based upon biome. So all desert maps will generally have the same resource availability, placement, and quantities, but different than temperate, tropic, or mediterranean maps.

This here is a handy guide I spent a lot of time on a while ago. http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15562

[sanderd17]

Mythos_Ruler, just a technical thing.

Right around the base, everything is clear, so you the random map knows it can place a stone and a metal mine there. While further on, stuff is distributed according to random patterns. So it's possible the RMS wants to put the mine in a forest, finds no place for it, and gives up. In that case, it's not sure at all the player will have a mine near to his base. On skirmish and scenario maps, this is no problem.

Maybe it should be better to have a small stone and metal resource next to the CC (so the player certainly has something), and just distribute the rest randomly.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Mythos_Ruler, just a technical thing.

Right around the base, everything is clear, so you the random map knows it can place a stone and a metal mine there. While further on, stuff is distributed according to random patterns. So it's possible the RMS wants to put the mine in a forest, finds no place for it, and gives up. In that case, it's not sure at all the player will have a mine near to his base. On skirmish and scenario maps, this is no problem.

Maybe it should be better to have a small stone and metal resource next to the CC (so the player certainly has something), and just distribute the rest randomly.

Can a map script create a "clear space" first before placing a large stonemine or metal mine quarry? So that trees wouldn't be placed within the mines.

[niektb]

But then you would have to calc some paths from open spaces to the mine space to make it sure that everything is reachable

[Mythos_Ruler]

But then you would have to calc some paths from open spaces to the mine space to make it sure that everything is reachable

Don't you have to do that already with mines that the script places?

[Zeta1127]

I probably wouldn't really know what you are saying, I don't play that much, because the only computer I have that can play the game has a built-in graphics card that can't really handle the main menu (the moving parts flicker rapidly). I don't really know when to expand or the subtleties of the economy yet, so I basically just abuse the fact I can outlast the AI.

[FeXoR]

Mythos_Ruler: sanderd17's concerns are quite real (I wanten to mention that too).

It can likely be handled but has to be for each map individually.

I was hoping to have a general function that places the resources close to the start locations alongside the starting entities.

But:

- The inner part (radius ~0-10 from the center of each players civ center) is occupied by starting entities

- The outer part (radius ~15-25) has to be free for the Iberian civ bonus walls.

(I tried to place the resources between them and this map adopted that derivation)

So there's already not much space left for the mines (assuming 25 tile radius for each players base in total which already means on small maps with many players there is not much space for the random distribution of things).

The resources might be best placed about 25-30 tiles away (Not sure if that means non-Iberian players see them initially or need to scout)

However, on most maps there's barely enough place for the Iberian walls.

So conversion of the existing RMS will at least need some time.

(The "Maps and Biome Guide" doesn't really consider the Iberian walls AFAIK.

- The small woods close to the start locations will collide with the wall

- On Alpine maps the mountains collide with the wall

- On forest maps the wall might block narrow passages

etc.

And until now we can't check this collision during generation (but there is a patch to get the entity data).

So I intend to add tile classes for the walls that can then be avoided by anything else.

I personally don't like the tile class implementation too much because it's one of those things making the RMS generate so slow (I think mainly due to the many function calls but I can be wrong)

So on my maps I try to avoid avoid classes and similar stuff.)

PLZ consider that adding more general rules for RMS (Like resource portions based on biome, increased map sizes, civ bonus like the Iberian walls etc.) means leaving the RMS less room for differentiating over all map design.

This also goes for different resources needed for different factions at town phase.

I don't want it to be changed by all means but it's for sure a thing to consider.

It might be best to check in RMS scripts for the players civ so:

- If Iberian the needed space for the base is a circle of 30 tiles (quite huge)

- If not Iberian 20 tiles radius base circle will do (OK)

I don't like the idea to check that every time you place anything for the general random map design though.

Edited May 28, 2014 by FeXoR

[niektb]

Now still the ScaleByMapSize isn't clear to me. But still, with those values above (1000, 2000 (!)) still at most 3 fishes are showing up. Has it in some way to do with my code (f.e. the constraint)?

Edit: As always, it doesn't do any harm to add my complete code.

Schwarzwald2405.zip

Edited May 28, 2014 by niektb

[niektb]

This map has been committed since r15327

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/15327

Thanks for reviewing, sanderd17

[Lion.Kanzen]

This map has been committed since r15327

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/15327

Thanks for reviewing, sanderd17

I say you. Now you can appears in. Credits as map maker

[Yves]

Again, nice work!

I like that map a lot

[niektb]

Again, nice work!

I like that map a lot

Thank you!