Visha Kanya - Poison Maidens

[gudo]

Just doing a marathon Wikipedia session when I ran across this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visha_Kanya

Sounds like they could be a pretty cool assasin type unit for the Mauryans. Not quite sure how the mechanics would work.

[Pureon]

One-strike-kill melee units with low hitpoints could work. 5x melee attack bonus against hero units.

[Unarmed]

I thought of something, posted in another thread, but I suppose it would need new programming and stuff like that;

Poison weapons/units do little damage, however they slowly make a unit lose health like a outpost in neutral territory (could the code of that work for this?).

The losing health will continue until the unit dies, unless! The unit affected goes into a healing building and it is resolved.

That was my basic idea. I haven't really thought of issues it could have or stuff like that.

I would recommed reading into chemical, entomological and biological warfare of history, it's interesting. Romans used bee hives we discussed about this in another thread, Hannibal used poisonous snakes, the Scythians used poison arrows, Ancient Chinese used poison gas. Greeks poisoned wells. Mongols used the plague.

I also thought when spies would be introduced the Greeks "could poison wells". The spies would have to do something to a building and the "well would be poisoned". What happens is that the all the workers of the player affected would work less for a slightly ammount of time. Because if I remember correctly, the Greeks used a poison that did not kill but gave you a bad case of diarrea. EDIT: actually no, they used poisons that really killed, the poison causing diarrea was used against Alexander the Great!

These kind of "gimmicky" stuff would be cool to see.

I don't know who did it, but there were also people who tortured enemies using assassin bugs, and some Native Americans I think, burried enemies into the deep sand and let them be tortured by ants.

I don't think I need to tell about flaming pigs, but I thought the Chinese used flaming oxes. (can't seem to find anything about flaming oxes anymore though!)

I remembered it correctly! Here the flaming ox is:

http://depts.washing...ch/firearms.htm

EDIT: I demand we have this:

Furthermore, Thucydides mentions the use of tubed flamethrowers in the siege of Delium in 424 BC.

I'm not going to demand anything, that was a joke. But yeah you would make someone happy. Hehe. (I'm ignoring any issues, historical or otherwise)

Edited July 2, 2013 by Unarmed

[sanderd17]

it looks like visha kanya caused almost instant death, so that wouldn't need extra programming (btw, the slow damage would only be a small patch, nothing difficult). It depends if the artists want to model it, it could be an extra unit, or a replacement for the maiden guard (as that has no specific name yet), just some other stats (more attack, less armour and hp), and different attack animation (what? looking?)

Edited July 2, 2013 by sanderd17

[zoot]

They seem somewhat off in terms of historical accuracy, though I agree they would be cool character-wise.

[Unarmed]

They seem somewhat off in terms of historical accuracy, though I agree they would be cool character-wise.

It seems poison was used as a weapon by the Indians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bindusara

Though this story also seems somewhat unlikely, "boasted".

I suppose women using poison to kill does not seem that imaginary. Though "blood that is poisonous".

I will do some research into the use of poison in Ancient times, since I'm in the mood of doing that.

Wikipedia again but whatever:

Poisoned weapons were used in ancient India,^[5] and war tactics in ancient India have references to poison. A verse in Sanskrit reads "Jalam visravayet sarmavamavisravyam ca dusayet," which translates to "Waters of wells were to be mixed with poison and thus polluted."^[5]

EDIT 1: A good read:

http://toxipedia.org...Fire+Poster.pdf

Celts, Greeks and Romans used spears or arrows with poison.

Spartans used poison gas, toxic sulphur dioxid. Persians also used poison gas against Roman besiegers (not usable for mod since it was in mines).

Edited July 2, 2013 by Unarmed

[Lion.Kanzen]

is time to discussion about special moves or abilities. Poison can be a special movement that's do damage every second in 2 minutes or something. See Fungal growth.

[Unarmed]

is time to discussion about special moves or abilities. Poison can be a special movement that's do damage every second in 2 minutes or something. See Fungal growth.

I'm not sure if abilities fit 0 A.D.

I love the abilities in Company of Heroes. I enjoyed the hero abilities in the Battle for Middle Earth demo.

Though, charging is planned. This must be a ability. So I guess why not? Unless it's too silly.

______________________________________________________

Since the Spartans are lacking siege equipment, it would be really cool if they get the pump flamethrower and the pump poison gas. But yeah it requires new animations and stuff like that. And another problem is that there are not any good pictures only this description:

in 424 B.C. the Spartans deployed an improvised flamethrower at the siege of the fortress of Delium. It consisted of a large bellows that blew down a long pipe and across a huge cauldron of flaming coals, thereby blowing a furnace-flame directly at the wall of the wooden fortress.

I love the idea of unique units and weapons. Though these kind of things do little to gameplay but cost a lot of time to be made. The Gastraphetes is another example. It's just a bow (though it could have longer reload time but more damage), yet it needs new animations and models.

[Pheck]

The question is, is it really worth adding if, in history, it only appeared once or twice or the particular civilisation was not well known for it? (Eg. The Spartan Flamethrower)

Posion is an option, although I know from previous games that it is quite annoying and therefore I think it should be limited to certain units in only a few civilisations. This Visha Kanya unit seems like a great idea, and I think a poison attack, if implemented, could make it unique from other units and civilisations.

+ Support

[Unarmed]

The question is, is it really worth adding if, in history, it only appeared once or twice or the particular civilisation was not well known for it? (Eg. The Spartan Flamethrower)

Posion is an option, although I know from previous games that it is quite annoying and therefore I think it should be limited to certain units in only a few civilisations. This Visha Kanya unit seems like a great idea, and I think a poison attack, if implemented, could make it unique from other units and civilisations.

+ Support

You make a fair point. I was going to say it would be something for DLCs. Though the Spartans could use a siege unit, hence I did not mentioned it. And I thought I made it obvious that you could ask if it's worth it.

But this is one of those cases I would personally say, if considered, "fun above realism". First Person Shooters have weapons which are not in service, but added for coolness. We have heroes which only appear once in history. I'm sure I can think of more examples.

The poison, we could test out if slowly losing health works. If not it could be tweaked or poison could simply mean extra damage. I say could, it is easier to just go with extra damage.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Works with Empire Erath, but is misc point, the game is good, only AOK gameplay gives a superiority against many Modern rst. Even Microsoft never can do a better AOE after that (AOM don't count).

I saw the RPGs World of Warcraft is good for be cooperative and lot of new stuff. What you think a good with not ending of features, I mean always developers update with new content, can be addictive because the game changes in every update?

I miss the Gastratophetes too. Is like a bolt shooter.

Sorry for news topic off. But I want to know why Aok was one most best RTS of all time.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

If I may say myself, the flamethrower for the Spartans seems a little too much. The reason that the Spartans are currently lacking in siege is because they were never very good at it to begin with. (Take the siege of Plataea for an example.)

[Mythos_Ruler]

The flame thrower was actually used by the Thebans, not the Spartans.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Could we use "Visha Kanya" for the name of the Maiden Guard for now until/unless we find something better?

[oshron]

if nothing else, the Visha Kanya could be an editor-only unit; for example, they could appear in a few missions of a Mauryan campaign where your goal is to kill an enemy leader

as to the use of poison, this could be a genera function for the game. personally, i think that Heroes should have special attacks (with some overlap perhaps depending on what they did in history, depending, or what they are equipped with), but that's a little beside the point. in AOM, some units shared special attacks or other properties. for instance, the Greek Cyclops and the Norse Kraken both had a special attack where they pick up a single enemy unit and throw him at other units, instantly killing them and anything they hit. alot of units also had other "instant kill" attacks even if they came in slightly different flavors (like spraying acid on an enemy and melting them in the Atlantean Argus unit, as opposed to turning them to stone with the Greek Medusa, or throwing men/splitting ships with the Norse Kraken, or even cursing someone and turning them into an undead minion with the Egyptian Mummy.

anyway, more to the point, there could be a general Poison special attack with some units where, after they charge up an attack (perhaps using a stamina bar) they use a special animation and the targeted enemy is surrounded by a green visual effect which indicates poisoning, and they're consistently affected by it for about a minute, losing health at a relatively rapid rate.

[Mythos_Ruler]

About "poison" working like what you guys are suggesting, I don't see how it could be anything but annoying unless the game was a slower game with a lower number of units, like some kind of rpg.

If anything, I'd rather give the Mauryans a special set of techs to choose from:

Poison Arrows

Archers +25% attack vs. Infantry

vs.

Steel Arrows

Archers +25% attack vs. Elephants

[Unarmed]

Ok let me be clear I'm just saying it is a possibility. Not that it should be made, or is going to be made.

Because: it requires new animations, new model, new coding what not. Then there's balance etc. It might be simply not worth it.

I don't really want to start a discussion about it, because I feel the change of actually seeing it/them in the game is abysmal.

I just wanted to give some examples of weird/unique/unconventional weapons, and yes, I would be pleased to see them if done correctly. I remember as a kid I loved the "weird", better said exotic, things in Age of Empires, the elephants, the camels, the fire galley.

Maybe some of the developers or players didn't know of them. Whatever they are fit for the game, I'm sure the developers can decide. But true, I did mention the Spartan siege thing.

The flame thrower was actually used by the Thebans, not the Spartans.

Good for pointing out. There is actually a picture of it.

Here is the incorrect source:

http://www.fighttime...asp?article=676

About "poison" working like what you guys are suggesting, I don't see how it could be anything but annoying unless the game was a slower game with a lower number of units, like some kind of rpg.

If anything, I'd rather give the Mauryans a special set of techs to choose from:

Poison Arrows

Archers +25% attack vs. Infantry

vs.

Steel Arrows

Archers +25% attack vs. Elephants

Yeah I can see how my idea would be annoying. Hence I said it might be much better to just go for more damage.

The only thing I don't like about just doing extra damage, the poison is really nothing special. But if there is no better alternative, it's all fine and dandy to me.

What about some effect instead? Poison arrows make:

-units take more damage from all other weapons

-units deal less damage

etc.

But I guess that's too much programming work. (Balance should not be a problem, the effect could be very minimal)

Edited July 3, 2013 by Unarmed

[oshron]

EDIT: Unarmed posted while i was still typing; this is in response to Mythos_Ruler's previous post

that could also work. though with units with a Poison special attack, these likely woudnt be part of regular gameplay any more than the Viking longboat in the editor is. they'd be the kind of thing included for scenario design and would only play a role in a hypothetical Mauryan campaign, and not as part of the multiplayer mode

Edited July 3, 2013 by oshron

[Unarmed]

Also is the fireraiser the flamethrower?

[Mythos_Ruler]

Also is the fireraiser the flamethrower?

Yeah, the fire raiser in Atlas is based on descriptions of the one the Thebans used at Delium against the Athenians.

[Unarmed]

Yeah, the fire raiser in Atlas is based on descriptions of the one the Thebans used at Delium against the Athenians.

Cool.

Something nice for a Delium scenario.

[Potter]

Could we use "Visha Kanya" for the name of the Maiden Guard for now until/unless we find something better?

Visha means poison

Kanya means maidan

So, I don't think that we can use "visha Kanya" for maiden guard!

Maybe we can use something like "Raksha Kanya" as Raksha means protection...

Edited July 6, 2013 by Potter