Working on stuff for Alpha 14.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Some stuff I'm working on for Alpha 14 already (since Alpha 13 is so close and is in commit freeze). I'm starting to add more spec and normal maps again for terrains. Here you can see a mix of fancy normal/spec'd terrains and non-fancy terrains.

I also made Phase 2 (Town) upgrade cost 1000 food and 1000 wood. This is to make Village Phase last longer and encourage different build orders and experimentation on different strategies in the early game. I tried this after some discussion on the IRC channel with some members of the core multiplayer group and so far, I think it works well. Just need to adjust berry gathering rates and some other things.

We're also talking about removing the ability to drop off food.grain at the Civic Center, making the Farmstead more integral to farming. This would also help get rid of the ugly (and unrealistic) "plop a bunch of farms around your town center" technique and push farming a little ways out from the middle of the base. An additional idea is to make farms only available after a Farmstead is constructed. Basically, building a Farmstead "unlocks" farm fields for planting. It's just talk for now.

[zoot]

A bit lukewarm on the food.grain idea, personally: if I look at the unit details panel, and see that a given unit is carrying food, how do I know whether it is food.grain specifically?

[Mythos_Ruler]

A bit lukewarm on the food.grain idea, personally: if I look at the unit details panel, and see that a given unit is carrying food, how do I know whether it is food.grain specifically?

Maybe a different icon? Like a grain icon+the generic food icon or a small generic food icon in the corner of a grain icon.

The food.grain dropsite thing was a compromise idea because some of the multiplayer core group were lukewarm about the farmland idea. I kind of prefer the farmland thing, myself, since it pushes farming away from the Civic Center, makes raiding farms a viable tactic, encourages exploration (to find the farmland), is something else for the players to fight over, and encourages hunting and gathering in the early game.

[Shield Bearer]

We're also talking about removing the ability to drop off food.grain at the Civic Center, making the Farmstead more integral to farming. This would also help get rid of the ugly (and unrealistic) "plop a bunch of farms around your town center" technique and push farming a little ways out from the middle of the base. An additional idea is to make farms only available after a Farmstead is constructed. Basically, building a Farmstead "unlocks" farm fields for planting. It's just talk for now.

For the time being that seems like a good idea. But in the future I'd like it to work in one of two ways. Either have a bonus (gathering bonus so that the worker can carry twice as much grain in one go or something) or a build radius around the farmstead.

For the record, I like the farmland idea...

[zoot]

The build radius idea seems more viable to me, personally, than special-casing grain.

[Shield Bearer]

What were the reasons against farmland?

[Pedro Falcão]

What were the reasons against farmland?

Against farmlands there weren't any, AFAIK. It was needing only someone to go on and implement it.

Now this idea of taking farms away from the civ center is new. And pretty interesting, if you'd ask me. Not to mention it is more realistic.

[zoot]

Pedro:

The food.grain dropsite thing was a compromise idea because some of the multiplayer core group were lukewarm about the farmland idea.

Farmland seemed sound enough to me too, as long as it is only a boost - you'll still be able to build fields outside the farmland, just at a lower yield.

Edited April 2, 2013 by zoot

[WhiteTreePaladin]

I wouldn't do this unless we weren't going to do farmlands at all (Not sure if I would do it even then.) If it's a matter of implementation, I would wait for farmlands.

Also, not being able to drop off certain types of a resource sounds confusing. We have resource sites for the major type of resourses, but nothing this fine grained.

[historic_bruno]

We're also talking about removing the ability to drop off food.grain at the Civic Center, making the Farmstead more integral to farming. This would also help get rid of the ugly (and unrealistic) "plop a bunch of farms around your town center" technique and push farming a little ways out from the middle of the base. An additional idea is to make farms only available after a Farmstead is constructed. Basically, building a Farmstead "unlocks" farm fields for planting. It's just talk for now.

As a slight modification, what if you could only build farm fields while you had a farmstead? Instead of only needing to build one at the very start of the game. I guess making them the only dropsite for grain would accomplish that. However I agree with zoot and don't like special casing which dropsites accept grain (not only because it's a confusing concept), but I do like the idea of some kind of bonus for having farms close to a farmstead and/or away from the CC. I wouldn't tie it into where the grain is actually dropped off, because then you end up with cases where a farm might be equally distant from both a farmstead and a CC.

[stwf]

Perhaps some mild deterrent to using the CC as a dropsite? Figure the CC can process and distribute grain, but it can't do it as efficiently as a dedicated farmstead can, so units making full drop offs at a CC might take some time to unload, where it is instant at a dedicated drop zone. So the loss of worker time would prompt people to build farmsteads instead of farms close to the CC.

Just a thought

[Jeru]

I wouldn't do this unless we weren't going to do farmlands at all (Not sure if I would do it even then.) If it's a matter of implementation, I would wait for farmlands.

Also, not being able to drop off certain types of a resource sounds confusing. We have resource sites for the major type of resourses, but nothing this fine grained.

+1

[historic_bruno]

I liked the idea of farmlands, I think we should at least try it before scrapping the idea, and I haven't seen much opposition to it. As far as implementation, I think it could be done fairly easily with special entities placed on the map by the designer (probably invisible in-game?), and then farms within X meters of that entity will get infinite yield or whatever bonus(es) we think best.

Perhaps some mild deterrent to using the CC as a dropsite? Figure the CC can process and distribute grain, but it can't do it as efficiently as a dedicated farmstead can, so units making full drop offs at a CC might take some time to unload, where it is instant at a dedicated drop zone. So the loss of worker time would prompt people to build farmsteads instead of farms close to the CC.

Then you have to think about UnitAI, does it need to calculate which dropoff will be optimal based on the bonus vs. distance? If not, how does the user control that? Again, what if the CC and farmstead are approximately equally distant from the farm, which does it choose and why?

[Pedro Falcão]

Come on, guys, it's not like there'll be another completely different resource. Many games do use different dropsites for different resources, what is being proposed is just to take off the civic center of the equation. If the farm is only being available after the mill's placement, it's not that much of a deal anyways. Besides, you must consider these points:

- It is kind of an informal agreement that farms are to be the source of food for the late-game, so nobody would build them early on, anyway.

- In the Age of Empires series, one needs a mill (or a market, in AoE1) to build farms and it worked just fine.

- People already try to save gathering time by building dropsites close to the resources, the only thing that's changing here is that people won't have the convenience of having the civ center as that big dropsite with optimal distance for twice as much farms as the farmstead, but instead they'll be encouraged to expand and always keep an eye on your economy, what may open a gap not only for you to destabilize their food econ., but also a chance to create a decoy to draw attention from your ultimate target (if there is any target better than enemy's economy).

Edited April 2, 2013 by Pedro Falcão

[zoot]

It's not really a matter of people not appreciating the idea, but rather that it can't be implemented without weird consequences. Like, what if a villager gather some berries and then goes on to harvest a bit grain? Do we now need to show two resource counts in the unit panel? What if she also picks up some meat? Do we now show three? The game just hasn't been designed to support this type of distinction.

[leper]

Do we now need to show two resource counts in the unit panel? What if she also picks up some meat? Do we now show three? The game just hasn't been designed to support this type of distinction.

Small nitpick, but "The game" should be replaced by "The UI". (The ResourceGatherer component can handle multiple resources at once, but the UnitAI code related to gathering explicitly drops all other types when switching)

[zoot]

Small nitpick, but "The game" should be replaced by "The UI". (The ResourceGatherer component can handle multiple resources at once, but the UnitAI code related to gathering explicitly drops all other types when switching)

Right, but making "food != food" may cause problems in UnitAI and other components down the line. I don't have a crystal ball or anything, but I would be "uneasy" about doing it that way.

Edited April 2, 2013 by zoot

[leper]

You're right on that. I'm sure there would be some issues if we would go down that road, but we shouldn't do that as that doesn't seem to be the right way of handling this.

[alpha123]

- It is kind of an informal agreement that farms are to be the source of food for the late-game, so nobody would build them early on, anyway.

Currently that's pretty far from the truth; farms are the early and mid game food source, and 99% of the time the late game food source unless the player decides to use corrals, which currently are only viable late game and even then it's kind of iffy.

Personally I think all food sources should be viable at all stages of the game.

As a slight modification, what if you could only build farm fields while you had a farmstead?

I actually like that better than the food.grain thing. Less confusing and easier to display in the UI. OTOH, it doesn't actually solve the problem of farms near a CC -- the player could build a farmstead and then build a farm near the CC regardless.

I was the guy who came up with the food.grain thing along with Mythos -- I think it's probably the easiest way to solve this problem, but really it's just an ad hoc way of requiring a farmstead for farms. We might as well just do that.

Another idea I was toying around with is making berries regenerate food -- this is slightly more realistic (berries regrow -- you don't eat the whole bush ) and also makes berries viable as a food source for longer. The berry gather rate would have to be reduced to compensate, and the regeneration rate would be pretty slow (1 food every 10 seconds or something) although we could have techs to speed it up.

Edited April 2, 2013 by alpha123

[MishFTW]

Honestly a dynamic/tile-based farming system makes a lot of sense (realistically) and is logical. I am refering to the concept of using special terrain tiles for placing farms Spahbod mentioned months ago. (I cant find the topic though.) And removing food dropsite form the CC seems like a good idea. However, why not keep it during the village phase? It would be logical because during the village phase the settlement is so small food would most likely be stored there. Oh, and nice terrain stuff

[Shield Bearer]

I think we should move this topic into its own "design" thread. Design team, please take the necessary steps

[Mythos_Ruler]

I think there could be a combination of ideas that add up to a coherent whole. Just need to be creative and look at the big picture. So, if we agree that we want to get away from the whole "surround your civic center with a bunch of farms" thing and we think it looks unrealistic and silly (which I do) and we think moving farming away from the center of the player's base on out to the periphery of the base is a desirable thing -- if we agree on all this, then we are halfway there.

So, after reading everyone's comments, I think removing food.grain from the civic center is probably too restrictive, so let's scrap that idea right now. If we agree on that, then let's look at ways to make the farmstead more integral to farming. I think the easiest thing for us to agree on is that farm fields are unlocked by the building of farmsteads. This is what I would call a "soft" encouragement to plant farm fields around farmsteads. It was also part of the whole farming scheme from many years ago, so I like how the idea is making a comeback.

A "hard" encouragement would be to require farm fields be built within a distance or radius of a farmstead. I'm open to more arguments on that matter, pro and con. One way to eliminate the need for such a "hard" feature would be to implement the farmlands idea in conjunction with farmstead unlocking farm fields. The whole farmland concept is a "soft" encouragement, since you aren't required to build farms there, but you are strongly encouraged to do so by the harvesting bonus the farmland terrain would provide. Another idea (but not necessary to the farmlands idea being implemented) would be to allow farmsteads to be built on farmland even if that land isn't within your territory. It allows you to build precarious and unguarded "farming colonies" on the map even where you don't have direct control. Though, perhaps that idea lessens the impact of territory too much (con), but then again, perhaps it would introduce an interesting dynamic where people try to snatch up farmland before the other guy does (pro).

[Lion.Kanzen]

surround it the Farmstead, give a LOS(Radio) like the Civic Center expanding territory that force you contruct it in borders, and is the first vulnerable to attack of Enemies in their path. give a bonus like other people say. and i agree the Farm can be unlock with Farmstead that force to build in first village phase. some i do to fast upgrade to next phase is construct 5 Outpost or 2 houses 3 outpost. the Farmstead i construct in next Phase, when i was hunt and foraging all near to the Civic Center.

talking about silly or unreallistic

Edited April 3, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[sanderd17]

Honestly a dynamic/tile-based farming system makes a lot of sense (realistically) and is logical. I am refering to the concept of using special terrain tiles for placing farms Spahbod mentioned months ago. (I cant find the topic though.) And removing food dropsite form the CC seems like a good idea. However, why not keep it during the village phase? It would be logical because during the village phase the settlement is so small food would most likely be stored there. Oh, and nice terrain stuff

I like your ideas. In small communities, everything happens around the civil center. In large communities, it's distributed.

[Enrique]

I have another Idea:

If the farms are going to be infinite (IIRC they will) Why not make only infinite those around the farmstead?

This will definitely encourage people to build them around the farmstead instead of the CC, and kind of makes sense to me (and the farmland thing could still be implemented if desired)