Potentially Offensive Visual Content

[MishFTW]

Strict interpretation vs loose interpretation of history... sounds very familiar to me (I just finished the section about John Marshall in US History).

Historical accuracy has been a great part of the game. While some argue taking the swastika out is ruining that, I say not really. The Mauryans in fact had other symbols as well. On the other hand, some are suggesting it is offensive to include such a symbol. However, by including the symbol and the reasoning and motives behind them, we can educate the ignorant (for lack of a better word) people. They can learn the original meaning of the symbol and if they don't like it being in the game, nobody is stopping them from removing it (its open source...).

I honestly don't care and it being included in the game and it shouldn't be a big deal to divide the community over such a small issue.

As for the naked units, I suppose its history. But then again, if 0 A.D. pursues a PEGI rating, that might have consequences later (such as being bumped up to PEGI 18).

Really guys, there are much cooler and important things to 0 A.D. For example, see the completed alpha 12 tickets

[zoot]

Strict interpretation vs loose interpretation of history... sounds very familiar to me (I just finished the section about John Marshall in US History).

Historical accuracy has been a great part of the game. While some argue taking the swastika out is ruining that, I say not really. The Mauryans in fact had other symbols as well. On the other hand, some are suggesting it is offensive to include such a symbol. However, by including the symbol and the reasoning and motives behind them, we can educate the ignorant (for lack of a better word) people. They can learn the original meaning of the symbol and if they don't like it being in the game, nobody is stopping them from removing it (its open source...).

I honestly don't care and it being included in the game and it shouldn't be a big deal to divide the community over such a small issue.

With all due respect, why call it ignorance when it obviously has nothing to do with ignorance? Do you honestly think that either of us are more familiar with Germany's history than Germans are themselves?

Edited December 8, 2012 by zoot

[Lion.Kanzen]

I put that Symbol in th Shileds follow search how the units must look like.

http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1778093&TPN=2.

Jainism

http://www.markville.ss.yrdsb.edu.on.ca/projects/classof2008/chong2/kapadia/pe_jainismreligions.htm

Edited December 8, 2012 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

AND why its dont Banned from Wikipedia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

that i was take the Vectorial for my Shileds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu

Edited December 8, 2012 by Lion.Kanzen

[historic_bruno]

The legal argument against having swastikas in the game seems tenuous at best, it appears to be more of a cultural/social issue for a minority of the game's users, and in that case, how many groups do we have to appease to release 0 A.D.? How much history do we need to revise or erase before it's approved by the politically correct? The Mauryans existed outside the context of modern Germany, free of its guilt, they had their own history, and the same is true of modern Asians. The swastika is still used to this day, totally independent of Nazism. We would be doing a disservice to the Mauryans and Asian cultures by removing this symbol if it was truly important to them.

To me that is just a form of cultural imperialism; the rest of the world has to alter its history to suit the sensitivities of modern Germany. Can you imagine being made to feel ashamed for seeing or using a symbol your ancestors have used for millennia because someone in Germany distorted that symbol 70 years ago into something awful? Me either.

Edit: and more to the point, a lot of websites for example host content that is illegal in Germany but legal most other places. Music, videos, art, and writing to name a few media. The solution is pretty simple, you have a disclaimer that says there may be content that is illegal in Germany. If anyone is really worried beyond that, there could be a patch to remove the offending content from the game.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Nazis Stolen Symbols that they dont they are owner.

Why dont ban Roman Aquila. same with Swastika

[LordGood]

With all due respect, why call it ignorance when it obviously has nothing to do with ignorance? Do you honestly think that either of us are more familiar with Germany's history than Germans are themselves?

He means the international ignorance of the difference between the nazi swastika and the south asian one, not Germany's ignorance.

[zoot]

AND why its dont Banned from Wikipedia?

Does German law apply to English websites? By the way, that image has a prominent legal disclaimer:

This image shows (or resembles) a symbol that was used by the National Socialist (NSDAP/Nazi) government of Germany or an organization closely associated to it, or another party which has been banned by the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany.

The use of insignia of organizations that have been banned in Germany (like the Nazi swastika or the arrow cross) are also illegal in Austria, Hungary, Poland,Czech Republic, France, Brazil, Israel, Ukraine, Russia and other countries, depending on context. In Germany, the applicable law is paragraph 86a of the criminal code (StGB), in Poland – Art. 256 of the criminal code (Dz.U. 1997 nr 88 poz. 553).

[Lion.Kanzen]

Does German law apply to English websites? By the way, that image has a prominent legal disclaimer:

must be do same with aquila(eagle). its too nazi as swastika.

[zoot]

He means the international ignorance of the difference between the nazi swastika and the south asian one, not Germany's ignorance.

I have no reason to think he does. In response to FeXoR's original post about Germans and Jews, he wrote:

If people want to get offended then they can. Or perhaps they can choose to [...] be less ignorant on the matter.

[Lion.Kanzen]

say NAZI swastika not Indian.

but must answer a lawyer in these countries. but this not mean swastika is a "Evil symbol" or Wrong, or negative, its just Cultural.

i make many versions of Mauryan Shilds with other Indian Symbols. just put offin those Country Legal Version

[zoot]

must be do same with aquila(eagle). its too nazi as swastika.

Sorry, I don't know what that means.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Nazi Eagle is other Symbol (Stolen) from German but this look like more Roman (aquila)

link

[zoot]

To me that is just a form of cultural imperialism

Sure, so is the ban on boobies. I think we should heed Jeru's call to keep the discussion civil and abstain from reducing it to mere name-calling.

Edit: and more to the point, a lot of websites for example host content that is illegal in Germany but legal most other places. Music, videos, art, and writing to name a few media. The solution is pretty simple, you have a disclaimer that says there may be content that is illegal in Germany. If anyone is really worried beyond that, there could be a patch to remove the offending content from the game.

If we can contemplate making a patch, why can't we contemplate making a simple, non-intrusive option to toggle it off? Is it just to make a point?

[Lion.Kanzen]

i Only a make Critic about laws in these. and Bruno yes is Imperialist.

http://en.wikipedia....Eagle_(heraldry).

i was Make many Versions, that why i make many shields.

but for me its Indian not Nazi.

Put 0.AD Swastika banned Version for these countries. same with girls.

and the people even ofenden with this.

http://www.symbols.n...ide/solarcross/

MAURYAN SHIELDS.

http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16653&st=40#entry253219

Edited December 8, 2012 by Lion.Kanzen

[Mythos_Ruler]

I'm perfectly okay with a toggle or even a Germany-only version that removes the "offending" textures (as long as this doesn't cause multiplayer incompatibilities).

However, there is a distinction between the Nazi swastika as commonly portrayed, and the Hindu swastika we use in the game. I thought we talked about this before and concluded that Hindu cultural symbols (i.e. swastikas) are indeed not banned by German law. Is there not a court precedence in Germany that sheds light on the issue?

And here's another thought: What if we were developing a World War 2 RTS? Would we be "insensitive" if we included Nazi symbolism in such a game? If you can be honest with yourself and say, "We would obviously have to use Nazi symbolism in such a game, whether some people like it or not," then you should be honest with yourself and come to the conclusion that we should use Hindu symbolism in 0 A.D., whether some people like it or not.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I'm perfectly okay with a toggle or even a Germany-only version that removes the "offending" textures (as long as this doesn't cause multiplayer incompatibilities).

However, there is a distinction between the Nazi swastika as commonly portrayed, and the Hindu swastika we use in the game. I thought we talked about this before and concluded that Hindu cultural symbols (i.e. swastikas) are indeed not banned by German law. Is there not a court precedence in Germany that sheds light on the issue?

And here's another thought: What if we were developing a World War 2 RTS? Would we be "insensitive" if we included Nazi symbolism in such a game? If you can be honest with yourself and say, "We would obviously have to use Nazi symbolism in such a game, whether some people like it or not," then you should be honest with yourself and come to the conclusion that we should use Hindu symbolism in 0 A.D., whether some people like it or not.

TOTALLY I AGREE.

for me this not same.

that is only for you guys see why are not same. eve if put in same context

Edited December 8, 2012 by Lion.Kanzen

[zoot]

And here's another thought: What if we were developing a World War 2 RTS? Would we be "insensitive" if we included Nazi symbolism in such a game? If you can be honest with yourself and say, "We would obviously have to use Nazi symbolism in such a game, whether some people like it or not," then you should be honest with yourself and come to the conclusion that we should use Hindu symbolism in 0 A.D., whether some people like it or not.

Well, that is the problem. I think you all are mixing in feelings and perhaps politics into what should not have anything to with either. If we were making a WWII game, and included Nazi symbolism, the game would be banned outright in Germany. In that case, it ought to be unproblematic to say: "Okay, so we make a minor option or build flag so Germans can play it too - no big deal." Apparently, because we use the Hindu swastiska in 0 A.D. instead of the Nazi one, people get all riled up and call "cultural imperialism!" etc. - why? It's a simple matter of making the game accessible to more people, not some kind of ultimate battle over freedom of speech.

Edited December 8, 2012 by zoot

[Mythos_Ruler]

I'm wondering why we are assuming there would be people offended by our use of the Hindu swastika...

And it is not at all clear yet that the use of the Hindu swastika would make the game banned in Germany. I respect FeXoR's comments and views, but he's not a legal scholar as far as I know. We should seek the advice of someone who actually has experience in this area.

It's a simple matter of making the game accessible to more people, not some kind of ultimate battle over freedom of speech.

Well, like I said, I am 'ok' with a toggle or something like that. But again, to reiterate, I think we should actually seek out the advice of someone who knows exactly what they're talking about. If Germany has even banned Hindu swastikas, then I think an alternate (multiplayer compatible) version for Germans is fine. It wouldn't be difficult to do at all. It's just, we are not sure yet if we even need to do this.

[Lion.Kanzen]

even feel diferent.

here was a Nazi and India symbol. but its gone.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Lion.Kanzen

[zoot]

even feel diferent.

link

Are you trying to provoke someone by spamming that image? I don't think you have much success

[Lion.Kanzen]

Are you trying to provoke someone by spamming that image? I don't think you have much success

What are you talking about see again.

We must be Tolerant. about others.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Lion.Kanzen

[zoot]

And it is not at all clear yet that the use of the Hindu swastika would make the game banned in Germany. I respect FeXoR's comments and views, but he's not a legal scholar as far as I know. We should seek the advice of someone who actually has experience in this area.

To be honest, it's not the law that I am most concerned about, it's things like download sites and magazines (as Jeru said, distribution venues). They will readily exclude a game just on the suspicion that there could be a conflict, if not with the law, then with public opinion (read: branding).

One of the Wolfenstein games was pulled, not by the authorities, but by the publisher, because a tiny inconspicious swastika slipped through: http://kotaku.com/5365155/swastika-gets-wolfenstein-pulled-from-german-shelves

[Mythos_Ruler]

One of the Wolfenstein games was pulled, not by the authorities, but by the publisher, because a tiny inconspicious swastika slipped through: http://kotaku.com/53...-german-shelves

Good thing then that we are not a commercial outfit and don't have to worry about investors. We can do what's right based on deliberation and facts, not fear. Let's try to get the advice of someone who really knows what they're talking about. I don't think any of us are legal scholars.

[Lion.Kanzen]

To be honest, it's not the law that I am most concerned about, it's things like download sites and magazines (as Jeru said, distribution venues). They will readily exclude a game just on the suspicion that there could be a conflict, if not with the law, then with public opinion (read: branding).

One of the Wolfenstein games was pulled, not by the authorities, but by the publisher, because a tiny inconspicious swastika slipped through: http://kotaku.com/53...-german-shelves

that i agree with that we must be ask Edited December 8, 2012 by Lion.Kanzen