Alpha XI, Laconia. Is it "winnable"?

[STDOUBT]

Hello all!

I discovered 0AD about one month ago, and I have to say I'm very very grateful for it!

Very beautiful game which I am sure will become legendary one day, and remain a cornerstone

in gaming for many years to come.

Also, the importance of the GPL even in games cannot be overstated IMO.

So, Laconia.

I am able to withstand column after column of invaders, but I just can't seem to get my army "fat' enough

to properly strike back at the invaders. I understand (vaguely) the historical implications of this Match, and

that the Spartans are cornered, and are defeated.

I seem to never be able to sustain a big enough food supply, even with a farmstead, "dedicated" hunters and

a fishing boat. Eventually (after 2 hours or so), the invaders wear me down and I lack either enough wood

or food to build back my sodliers. Any tips for this Match? I have won a few others (very great experience).

FWIW, I've only used the default AI (qBot, I think?).

I guess my question boils down to:

Are some Matches not meant to be winnable?

...or is there some algorythm built into the game which ensures a path to victory?

Thanks very much all! Keep up the fantastic work!!!!

[zoot]

I don't think I have ever encountered a match that is not winnable somehow. The main weakness of the AI is that it doesn't yet understand defensive buildings like towers, so get one up as soon as you can and you have almost won (You need to garrison it fully for it to be effective.) When you run out of resources, set up trade routes between markets.

Also, for the end game, siege weapons are indispensable.

[alpha123]

I've beaten it more than once, so yes, it's winnable. I can't really tell you how though.

It helps somewhat to pull back all your troops as soon as you can. Besides, you also get 8 special Spartan Champion Pikemen if you do, which are otherwise unbuildable.

Get to City Phase and use the Royal Stoa ASAP. A few Thracian Black Cloaks and a couple towers can take down a sizeable army if you're decent at micromanaging battles.

Also, build your mills and farmsteads as far from your civ center as possible. qBot isn't very bright.

[STDOUBT]

To: zoot

Hmm. How about Laconia?

Next time you fire up 0AD, give that one a try. I think you'll find that by the time you have a reasonable column ready to march the invaders have already attacked a couple times and have at least 4 fortresses standing!

I haven't tried trading in this Match, but in the past I've found trading does not work with people with whom you're warring.

Thanks for the tip on garrisoning the towers. Spartans start out with 3 in this Match and having them fully occupied really helps!

Do let me know if you get a chance to try this map.

Thanks!

To: alpha123

That's good to know! It seems there are more options than I realized (have not heard of Royal Stoa or Thracian Black Cloaks and never made it to city phase in this Match), though I have begun recalling all soldiers at the very beginning.

Thank You!

Edited November 22, 2012 by STDOUBT

[fcxSanya]

I haven't tried trading in this Match, but in the past I've found trading does not work with people with whom you're warring.

You can trade between your own markets/docks.

[zoot]

Do let me know if you get a chance to try this map.

I just did. General strategy:

1. Get defense (towers) up in front of your base.

2. Establish a steady income.

3. Establish base close to enemy base.

4. Build fortresses close to enemy base (garrison some soldiers in them for defense).

5. Spam siege weapons at the sucker (target civic centers and fortresses in particular).

6. Take out the remaining infantry/cavalry units with big group of Thracian Black Cloaks.

[quantumstate]

I just tied this map. My strategy was:

1. Ignore the army, let it die.

2. Rapidly build up my base (see the advanced economic walkthrough demo map for more details if you have svn) mainly training ranged infantry from the CC plus the stronger hero.

3. When qBot attacks garrison until it starts attacking buildings.

4. wipe out the units since they are now focused on the buildings.

5. Continue building up rapidly.

6. March 50 decent units into the enemy base.

It took about 23 minutes before the march enemy into enemy base part.

I generally dislike defensive buildings so I never build any (except fortresses because they are needed for training).

[alpha123]

OK, I just tried this again. Victory in 25:36!

I highly advise retreating the army, as it gives you some workers to start gathering wood and a few champions to boot.

Essentially:

1. Retreat the army you start with. This may be a bit tricky as qBot will give chase. Sacrifice the citizen soldiers.

2. Build a barracks and a few extra towers.

3. Have the barracks build swordsmen, the civ center build skirmishers, and the Royal Stoa build heavy skirmishers. Try to make sure everything is always training something.

4. Put a ton of citizen soldiers on stone and metal (wood you should already have a bunch of people on).

5. Build a fortress near the northern part of your base, and maybe a few towers -- this really helps beat qBot's attack.

6. Train 5-10 Thracians.

7. Depending on how fast you are, qBot may or may not attack for a while. Garrison the fortress and towers to the max.

8. If you're decent, qBot's army should fall in 2-3 minutes max. Now's the time to attack.

9. Build a few battering rams.

10. Attack. Have the skirmishers, swordsmen, and spearmen take out their units, use the Thracians to take out towers, and the battering rams civ centers and fortresses.

Edited November 22, 2012 by alpha123

[Zeta1127]

I have beat Laconia at least once before, though it took an eternity, and I managed to save my entire army that was in the field do to a clever retreat. This was of course before Alpha 11, since the new sound manager makes it a real pain for me to play with sound, to the point I had to disable music and turn off my speakers.

[chaosislife]

Sounds like turtle for the win to me, concentrate on defense and let them waste their men trying to get past your towers. To make it more of a pain for them encase your towers in walls. You can build said walls so they have a spot for a long wall piece to convert into a gate so you can reman and repair your walls and towers, you can also just hide a few troops of archers or spear throwers in there. Take note of where the enemy attacks from most of the time, don't block it off, just set up kill zones to either side.

[greenknight32]

Took me a few tries, but I beat it, playing against Aegisbot. I didn't retreat the army, just built as fast as I could. I defended the river crossing with manned towers and 2 manned ships, fortress, massed troops. I used a phalanx of Spartan Hoplites set to defensive blocking the beach, backed with heavy skirmishers, swordsmen, cavalry, several healers. Built a 2nd civ center to the north early on. Built a bunch of rams and charged, then sent another wave, then a third which totally broke their resistance, mopped them up.

Ships might seem wasteful, but really weakened them - killed woodcutters who came near, started whittling down their attack forces before they even reached the crossing. Troops on the ships took no losses, and I could repair the ships between attack waves.

Edited November 23, 2012 by greenknight32

[Lion.Kanzen]

Retreat.

Build Solid defense.

Advance to 2 Phase

Build Civ Centre to the North close to the Narrows

Build 2nd CivC to the South.

Build 3th in South to the Enemy Center close where was a Outpost in the begining.

Build Siege Units and Black Coates and Expand to North.

Destroy Last Nortehn Enemy CC, Kill all Villagers.

WIN.

Take a screen and Post it .

[STDOUBT]

OK, I finally beat Laconia!!!!!

The tips you guys gave in this thread were indespensible. I was confused about the hotkey for screenshots, so I failed to get some.

By the end, I had taken over the entire West side, had three rings of defensive towers/walls each circling a fortress and civ center.

The whole thing took almost 5 hours (lol). I guess that proves I am smarter than AI by just enough heh.

There is still obviously a lot I need to learn about the game's mechanics. But what fun the learning!

I'm not sure if my victory was legit though; a few observations:

At one point I noticed an entire column of invaders being driven back by two pikemen. I noticed the pikemen were not taking damage,

and they basically dove that column away. After this point, the enemy seemed only to attack in dribs and drabs.

The gods of game glitches smiled on me?

It seemed at a certain point the AI just gave up, and focused itself on fortifications.

Once I marched into their territory for the final blow, they did put up a good fight, though.

I'd like to highight the way these battles/wars seem always to end (for me, anyway, so far):

Generally, a tattered remnant of various fighters finds a femle of the opposing society wandering the woods, or tilling a field, and dispatches her to the ether just before the victory flourish. In the last game I played (Arcadia 2), one of the last sounds was the baby crying as a female Gaul put her house up just before being gutted by a Spartan Pikeman. That house was the last Gaul structure standing, and it stood for only a few seconds.

I find it interesting how the true horror of war is preserved and presented in this game.

Arcadia 2 took me eleven and one half hours (yes, I know I'm probably doing something wrong). At the end, I really felt as though I'd been through a war. It was exciting, difficult, harrowing, grinding, exhausting and painful. I really lke this game!

Thanks for reading, all!

[Lion.Kanzen]

OK, I finally beat Laconia!!!!!

The tips you guys gave in this thread were indespensible. I was confused about the hotkey for screenshots, so I failed to get some.

By the end, I had taken over the entire West side, had three rings of defensive towers/walls each circling a fortress and civ center.

The whole thing took almost 5 hours (lol). I guess that proves I am smarter than AI by just enough heh.

There is still obviously a lot I need to learn about the game's mechanics. But what fun the learning!

I'm not sure if my victory was legit though; a few observations:

At one point I noticed an entire column of invaders being driven back by two pikemen. I noticed the pikemen were not taking damage,

and they basically dove that column away. After this point, the enemy seemed only to attack in dribs and drabs.

The gods of game glitches smiled on me?

It seemed at a certain point the AI just gave up, and focused itself on fortifications.

Once I marched into their territory for the final blow, they did put up a good fight, though.

I'd like to highight the way these battles/wars seem always to end (for me, anyway, so far):

Generally, a tattered remnant of various fighters finds a femle of the opposing society wandering the woods, or tilling a field, and dispatches her to the ether just before the victory flourish. In the last game I played (Arcadia 2), one of the last sounds was the baby crying as a female Gaul put her house up just before being gutted by a Spartan Pikeman. That house was the last Gaul structure standing, and it stood for only a few seconds.

I find it interesting how the true horror of war is preserved and presented in this game.

Arcadia 2 took me eleven and one half hours (yes, I know I'm probably doing something wrong). At the end, I really felt as though I'd been through a war. It was exciting, difficult, harrowing, grinding, exhausting and painful. I really lke this game!

Thanks for reading, all!

Press F2 for Screenshot.

Try reseach the Second tech in Tower gives Double arrows Shoot for Each soldier garrison.

[greenknight32]

I'd love to see a screenshot of that - massive defensive overkill!

I think what you saw was, the Romans were running out of resources. That seems to be the key to winning there - you keep them from colonizing the west side of the river, they use up the resources on the east side and can't make any more troops. That last attack column they sent was probably all low-grade soldiers they produced after they ran out of metal needed to produce stronger units.

Edited November 26, 2012 by greenknight32

[Lion.Kanzen]

I'd love to see a screenshot of that - massive defensive overkill!

I think what you saw was, the Romans were running out of resources. That seems to be the key to winning there - you keep them from colonizing the west side of the river, they use up the resources on the east side and can't make any more troops. That last attack column they sent was probably all low-grade soldiers they produced after they ran out of metal needed to produce stronger units.

Romans?

[greenknight32]

Oops, Macedonians. My memory's going. apparently.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Oops, Macedonians. My memory's going. apparently.

my mine its worse XD.

[desmotes]

Just read this thread and have to say there is a pretty easy way to win most of the maps (played Laconia today and had like 60 vs 720 deads, though the strategy described here won't fit 100% to Laconia:

Of your initial units, you send four to gathering food, the other four to build houses and the cavalry starts scouting.

Build up villagers to collect food and wood, around 10/10 for now, continue building houses til you reach five, so you can advance to town phase. Build another 10/5 villagers to gather stone/metal (you'll need the metal to advance to city phase and civ centres only for now), and some military units, By the time you should have scouted a few bottlenecks through which the enemy will attack (using rivers/mountains as defensive structures): Build some towers here and garrison soldiers inside (preferably bowmen, never checked whether others will fire at enemies, too^^), you'll probably have to build a civ center or two, don't defend an area too small. Then advance to city phase as soon as possible, to strengthen these bottlenecks by walls, so the towers are hidden behind towers and enemies can't slip through, garrison units in walls, too.

Towers are primary target for the enemy, so ranged attackers will fire at these, while melee attackers are useless, for they can't attack the walls. The enemy will probably start to counter this by siege weapons, so make sure you always got some quick reaction forces near to get them down.

Keep building up villagers to counter a shortage of resources, present or future.

Once you made it this far, you can take your time, gather resources and build up your structures as well as your army, the enemy forces will crash on your walls like water, all you'll have to do is repair the structures every now and then.

Depending on the number and strength of enemies, build up til population limit the military units of your choice or, if you're rather sure that you'll need only one campaign to bring down the enemy, consider killing villagers to enforce your army - if you won't make it, you can still rebuild villagers to gather resources and ultimately build up a new army, since all your base is still save thanks to your defensive structures.

(Thanks to this strategy I made it down to only six lost units on a 1:1 map - five of them during the very first attack of the enemy, which is the most critical one with this strategy - make sure you can fight back that one! - only another single unit while tearing down all of his city, thanks to pulling most of his army into my defenses, using cavalry)

___

For Laconia, building up walls is no good idea, it's better to build some fortresses and towers at fords. A tower and a fortress for each usually is enough, if you fully garrison them.

___

For open maps, it's still a good idea, to wall your self in and then garrison the walls, if you're playing defensively, which I prefer.

It just gives you more control over the map and the enemy - especially when playing with more than one enemy, you won't end up with one pillaging your town, while you are raging in anothers one's.

[greenknight32]

Right, anytime there are choke points you can defend it means you can defend much more efficiently. You can protect a lot more territory with fewer units, so you can have more gatherers and builders and build up much faster. The first attack often comes too soon for this, and you have to fight them on your doorstep - so it's critical to make enough fighters early.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Right, anytime there are choke points you can defend it means you can defend much more efficiently. You can protect a lot more territory with fewer units, so you can have more gatherers and builders and build up much faster. The first attack often comes too soon for this, and you have to fight them on your doorstep - so it's critical to make enough fighters early.

protect tower with palisades

[greenknight32]

protect tower with palisades

Good point - palisades are cheap and fast to build. Your towers can be killing the enemy while they're attacking the palisade, so they may never even reach the tower.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Good point - palisades are cheap and fast to build. Your towers can be killing the enemy while they're attacking the palisade, so they may never even reach the tower.

only ranged . but if they are not Sieg ar not problem.

I Take this idea from AOE Rise rome Campaing

Edited December 7, 2012 by Lion.Kanzen

[greenknight32]

Once the enemy starts building siege engines, palisades become about useless - by then you should be counter-attacking. Early in the game is when it helps to build palisades.