0 A.D. Rise of the East Mod

[wolflance]

Some other name change suggestion for Han Building:

Civic Center: Guan Fu （官府)

Government Center : The "Zhi Hui Zhong Xin" is extremely out of place. I suggest something like "Zhu Shuai Ying" （主帅营, meaning Military Commander's Camp）

Medical Center: Yi Guan （医馆）while similar facility certainly exists during Han period, but no specific term for it AFAIK.

Storehouse: Could be Liang Cang （粮仓）, even single word Cang (仓) should do.

Fortress: Closest name I could find is “Tun Bing Cheng” （屯兵城）, which means 'Garrison City'.

Siege Workshop: Zuo Fang （作坊）meaning 'Workshop' or Gong Cheng Zuo Fang （攻城作坊）meaning 'Siege Workshop'.

Unit Name Suggestion：

Han Dynasty terminology for Trade Ship is gǔ chuán （贾船）

I suggested Xing Shang （行商）before, but now I think the original term Shāng Rén （商人）is better.

There are mentions of Lian Nu Che （连弩车）in Han Dynasty text, which should be some sort of cart-mounted repeating siege crossbow. No one actually know what it looks like though.

Edited September 23, 2014 by wolflance

[niektb]

Hmm, apparently my reply went missing (did I forgot to press the post button?)

Anyway, here it is again:

I had a bright idea to check the chinese transifex translations:

Civic Center: Shìzhèng dàtīng (市政大廳). Literally (=> google translate) it means City Hall or Town Hall.

Storehouse: Cāngkù (倉庫) Warehouse

Fortress: Chéngbǎo (城堡) Castle

What do you think of these translations?

In our more recent docs we actually left out buildings like the Medical Center or the Siege Workshop. The Government Center is still present though. It is a building that either has unique technologies that are researchable or (if there are not enough unique technologies) bonuses things like farming or territory. I don't know if Military Commander's Camp is an appropriate translation for that?

[wolflance]

Hmm, apparently my reply went missing (did I forgot to press the post button?)

Anyway, here it is again:

I had a bright idea to check the chinese transifex translations:

Civic Center: Shìzhèng dàtīng (市政大廳). Literally (=> google translate) it means City Hall or Town Hall.

Storehouse: Cāngkù (倉庫) Warehouse

Fortress: Chéngbǎo (城堡) Castle

What do you think of these translations?

In our more recent docs we actually left out buildings like the Medical Center or the Siege Workshop. The Government Center is still present though. It is a building that either has unique technologies that are researchable or (if there are not enough unique technologies) bonuses things like farming or territory. I don't know if Military Commander's Camp is an appropriate translation for that?

Those translations make sense to me as far as modern Mandarin is concerned (I am a native speaker).

My suggestions OTOH are based on archaic terminology actually used during Han dynasty, or failing that, oldest appropriate terminology I could dig up. Admittedly my Google-fu is not up to the task, so I can't guarantee everything I suggested is 100% foolproof.

The problem I have with Government Center/Civic Center translation is that they means basically the same thing.

Can you point me to a more recent version of the design document?

[niektb]

Unfortunately we don't have a comprehensive list ATM, but for the buildings it is like every other civ with the exception of the Government Center.

List of buildings (with its current translation => without having adapted it to your suggestions):

Civic Center: Chéng Zhèn

Government Center: Zhi Hui Zhong Xin

House: Wū

Farmstead: Cāng Fáng

Corral: Shòu Juàn

Storehouse: Chǎng

Barracks: Bīng Yíng

Blacksmith: Tiějiàng

Market: Mào Fáng

Temple: Miào Yǔ

Fortress: Chéng Bǎo

Defense Tower: Dū

Outpost: Tún Bǎo

Palisade: Jiàn

Stone wall: Yōng

Stone wall (gate): Chéng Mén

Stone wall (tower): Yōng Dū

Dock: Bù

Farm (rice field): Shuǐ Tián

I think a difference you could assume is that the influence of the Government Center is national where the Civic Center is regional. (You can build multiple CC's but only 1 Government Center)

[wolflance]

Han Dynasty term (that I could dig up):

Civic Center - guān sì （官寺）, this is the Han Dynasty term for something like "government office". It is the combination of administration office, court of law, jail, armoury, storehouse, and sometimes governor's residence.

House - I suggested mín zhái （民宅）before, but now I think wū（屋）is actually better.

Barrack - jūn yíng（军营）is recorded in "Book of the Later Han", but that book is from 4th Century. Still this is the best I could find.

Alternatively, yíng （营）is fine too. There is another term xiào （校）, but less common.

Stable - jiù （厩）, but I noticed there isn't a stable.

Blacksmith is a tricky one. Han Dynasty term "铁官" seems to denote both the agency dealing with ironworking and the official appointed to that agency. No terminology for the facility/building itself that I could find. My best guess for an archaic-y term would be tiě zuò fāng （铁作坊）.

Corral - chù juàn （畜圈）is the more appropriate term, because shòu（兽）has the meaning of "wild animal".

The word juàn （圈）alone has the meaning of "corral". Could be used if no specific types of animal is picked.

Market/Trade Post - shì （市）

Dock - The term bù （埠）is correct, although I am not entirely sure whether Han Dynasty already developed such facility or not.

Temple - miào （庙）alone is fine.

Farmstead - cāng（仓）. Note that the term 'cāng' explicitly means "food storehouse (i.e. granary)".

Storehouse - kù （库）. This term originally means "armoury" but latter expanded to means "non-food storehouse".

Palisade - mù chéng （木城）which refers to entire stockade. For the wooden wall itself, it should be zhà （栅）.

*Note that stone walls/stone fortifications are uncommon in China until Ming Dynasty. They used rammed earth instead.

Wall - chéng qiáng 城墙 or chéng yuán 城垣

Wall Tower - chéng lóu （城楼）

Outpost - fēng suì （烽燧）is a building that guards the border. If enemies approach, it will send smoke signal during daytime (fēng 烽) and fire signal during nightime (suì 燧), also called tíng suì （亭燧）. Think Lord of the Rings fire beacons.

This is one of the ruins of the Han-period fēng suì.

Alternatively, wàng lóu （望楼）meaning "watchtower".

Wall Gate is correct.

Farm is correct.

Fortress - Found the term. It is called yào sài （要塞）

Not entirely sure:

Government center - During Han (and every subsequent) Dynasty, THE nation-wide administration office/Imperial court would be the Palace - gōng diàn （宫殿）.

Edited September 26, 2014 by wolflance

[wolflance]

Some info on Han dynasty boat:

Scale model of a Western Han ship found in the GuangZhou.

Eastern Han period, civilian boat model

Edited September 24, 2014 by wolflance

[wolflance]

Some bronze implement excavated from a Nanyue tomb (A contemporary of Western Han, later conquered.), said to have some engraving of warships. I have zero idea what is that suppose to represent, make that of what you will.

Edited September 24, 2014 by wolflance

[Stan`]

@Wolflance, would you mind downloading the mod and find all things that are not like you think they should ?

[wolflance]

Engraving of a Tower ship found on a Han period bronze mirror.

Artist's rendition of a Eastern Han tower ship. This design is closer to the engraving above.

Variant design for the Tower Ship.

Artist's rendition of a Eastern Han Dou Jian （斗舰）.

Covered swooper (蒙冲), probably based on Song Dynasty drawings.

Western Han warship classification:

lóu chuán （楼船, large tower ship）

gē chuán （戈船, medium warship, brimmed with various polearms）

xià lài （下濑, small, flat-bottomed ship for shallow water）

Eastern Han warship classification:

lóu chuán （楼船, large tower ship）

mào tū （冒突, assault ship）

lù ráo （露桡, ship which only exposed oars are visible, all crews were completely covered）

Late Eastern Han - Three Kingdoms period warship classification:

lóu chuán （楼船, large tower ship）

dòu jiàn （斗舰, medium warship ）

zǒu gě （走舸, fast warship）

méng chōng （蒙冲, covered swooper）

*The fire ship is said to be a converted méng chōng.

Obviously, no one knows what these ships look like.

The Chinese never developed naval ram AFAIK, so with the possible exception of méng chōng, did not use their warship in ramming attack. Chinese ships were likely slower too, lacking multiple levels of oars. They compensate for this shortcoming by building their ship much higher (as in, "Tower" ship) so more combatants can be crammed in. Most Chinese warships had crew numbered in the hundreds, sometimes thousands, and only very few of these crew are rowers. Higher ship also made boarding harder (but not impossible).

Liberal use of crossbows gave the Chinese some slight advantage in naval warfare too, as it is much easier to use a crossbow behind covers, even completely enclosed bunker, compared to bow and arrow.

Edited September 25, 2014 by wolflance

[niektb]

That Covered Swooper is likely indeed no Han version. A Chinese Historian told my that there is only pictorial evidence of Song version which however do not match the descriptions provided The Han Covered Swooper is said to be covered with hides:

"These are ships which have their backs roofed over and (armoured with) a covering of rhinoceros hide....... also both fore and aft, as well as to port and starboard, there are openings for crossbows and holes for spears. Enemy parties cannot board (these ships), nor can arrows or stones injure them. This arrangement is not adopted for large vessels because higher speed and mobility are preferable (for the Covered Swoopers), in order to be able to swoop suddenly on the unprepared enemy."

Some texts like these are talking about a rhinoceros hide but not everyone agrees at that.

Edited September 24, 2014 by niektb

[wolflance]

That Covered Swooper is likely indeed no Han version. A Chinese Historian told my that there is only pictorial evidence of Song version which however do not match the descriptions provided The Han Covered Swooper is said to be covered with hides:

Some texts like these are talking about a rhinoceros hide but not everyone agrees at that.

Earliest description I could find that mentions ox-hide/rhinoceros hide is from Tang Dynasty. Song Dynasty description found in Wu Jing Zong Yao （武经总要） also mentioned hide though.

Eastern Han Dynasty text (when this type of warship first appeared) only describe the ship as "long and narrow, used to assault enemy ship.". It did not mention any hide coverings (although the Chinese character meng （蒙）might indicate that it is indeed covered).

Edited September 25, 2014 by wolflance

[wolflance]

@Wolflance, would you mind downloading the mod and find all things that are not like you think they should ?

I play-test the mod just now and so far, so good! You guys really did a great job at bringing Han Dynasty to life!

There's still room for improvement a.k.a. 'things that are not like you think they should' though:

1) The swordsman is holding a Ming Dynasty sword. Han period sword is straight, narrow and single-edged, with a ring-pommel.

2) The spearman is holding a Song-Ming Dynasty halberd.

3) The spearman starts with armor...which is a little bit weird considering even Hoplite doesn't start with any armor (unless promoted).

4) The cavalry spearman is sometime holding a Song-Ming Dynasty halberd as well.

5) I am a little concerned about the paper lantern(s) found on Chinese building. Han Chinese JUST invented papermaking, which tend to be very coarse stuff. I can't imagine them suddenly be able to produce sophisticated thin paper for lantern right away.

(Then again I am not very familiar with Chinese architecture and lantern stuffs, so I can't really comment on it)

Gosh, extreme lag after I build my first (fishing) ship.

Edited September 25, 2014 by wolflance

[Stan`]

Ming sword ? If you mean pre han its intended ie liu bang.

For spears can you tell me whi should be used and which shouldn't ? (Pictures if possible)

[niektb]

Earliest description I could find that mentions ox-hide/rhinoceros hide is from Tang Dynasty. Song Dynasty description found in Wu Jing Zong Yao （武经总要） also mentioned hide though.

Eastern Han Dynasty text (when this type of warship first appeared) only describe the ship as "long and narrow, used to assault enemy ship.". It did not mention any hide coverings (although the Chinese character meng （蒙）might indicate that it is indeed covered."

Right, the text I quoted earlier is dated at the Tang Dynasty. However it is likely that he used earlier sources as rhinos where near to extinction in his time and not likely to be used en masse during the Tang dynasty:

I suspect that Li Quan's information about Covered Swoopers must be from an earlier source. Rhinos were near extinct in China during his lifetime, so the "rhinoceros hide" he mentioned would not fit with his time period.

@wolflang: do you use SVN or Alpha 16?

Edited September 25, 2014 by niektb

[wolflance]

Ming sword ? If you mean pre han its intended ie liu bang.

For spears can you tell me whi should be used and which shouldn't ? (Pictures if possible)

I think there are three or four variants of in game swordsman weapon model. The narrow, straight one is okay, the broader one and the curved one not so much.

This is a Han Dynasty sword (replica).

Ming or Qing Dynasty saber, which is way too advanced for that period.

Han Dynasty Ji Halberd. Han Army mainstay weapon, aside from spear.

Other polearms existed but not as common. See my post at #116.

This is a Song to Qing Dynasty Ji Halberd, which also did not exist back then.

@niektb

The Chinese text actually read "生牛革" , which is "uncured ox-hide". Nothing indicates that rhino was involved

I am using Alpha 16.

Edited September 25, 2014 by wolflance

[niektb]

So you did download the release of RotE? (That means you haven't seen the best of our mod yet)

[wolflance]

So you did download the release of RotE? (That means you haven't seen the best of our mod yet)

Nope, I download the Rise of the East Yánxù 16 version, so the buildings are still green-roofed.(Instead of the blue ones I found in the screenshot)

[niektb]

Ah, the unit rosters have got quite some changes since. (But that should be solved within a few weeks when a new release comes out)

[wolflance]

Looking forward to try on the newest version!

[wolflance]

I found some interesting stuff - Chinese roof design.

(From left to right) Only the top first, top second, top third, bottom first, bottom second, bottom fourth were developed during Han Dynasty.

I will type it out in Chinese for easier googling:

硬山顶

歇山顶

庑殿顶

悬山顶

重檐庑殿顶

四角攒尖

EDIT: My mistake. Double-roof have not yet appeared during Han Dynasty.

Edited September 29, 2014 by wolflance

[Stan`]

That's nice Will update my deviant art, with new screens.

[Stan`]

Here are all the new swords. They are iron nown except the two on the left. But it's more to showcase the shape.

[wolflance]

msg-12287-0-27330500-1405884707.png

Here are all the new swords. They are iron nown except the two on the left. But it's more to showcase the shape.

Nice one!

Two single-edged Huanshou Daos on the right side seems to lack a hilt color though, and the shorter one in the middle is missing a ring-pommel. Ring pommel could be larger.

Those double-edged swords (jian) seems to me closer to Warring States-Qin Dynasty design. Note that by Han period Jian was usually only reserved as officer or ceremonial weapon.

Replica Han-period Jian with Jade pommel and (smallish) sword guard.

(I bet it won't be noticeable in-game though )

Edited September 26, 2014 by wolflance

[wolflance]

Western Han-period fragment found in a Han border fort at Mongolia, believed to be the zhuan she ji （转射机）"revolving shooting machine" recorded in Mozi.

This is basically a movable arrowslit . A (siege) crossbow mounted behind it will have a 120 degree field of fire left to right, according to the Museum that displays it.

EDIT: I should post this in the siege weapon section Lol.

Edited September 26, 2014 by wolflance

[niektb]

@wolflance: I commited a variety of your suggested translations.