Hot take: GUI mods are NOT cheats and we should not regulate their use (+ general discussion about cheat prevention)

[Deicide4u]

2 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

The skill curve comes from strategy and multitasking ability, it has never been and nor should it exclusively be one or the other. Skill curves are important for a game's long term enjoyability.

 

Exactly @real_tabasco_sauce. OP, I think you are missing the point on several issues.

First and foremost, a game should be easy to pick up and play. Automation tools introduce unnecessary complexity.
Second, the game should be hard to master. Skilled and experienced players should be able to play better than new players. That rewards effort put into the game.
Third, any game can be played casually. It's up to you how seriously you want to play. If you just want to relax, hop on a team game with all Easy AIs, for example.

But, RTS game should be a game, not a job. If you want a job instead of a game, try playing Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance (in addition to StarCraft 1 that I've already recommended )

[TheCJ]

1 hour ago, Deicide4u said:

First and foremost, a game should be easy to pick up and play. Automation tools introduce unnecessary complexity

Do they? I could just not use them (like the current vanilla autoqueue). So its just as easy to pick up and play.

1 hour ago, Deicide4u said:

Second, the game should be hard to master. Skilled and experienced players should be able to play better than new players. That rewards effort put into the game.

We all agree on that one. But that will always be the case as long as its a strategy game. Because the better strategy thats being executed well will always beat a poor strategy.

1 hour ago, Deicide4u said:

If you just want to relax, hop on a team game with all Easy AIs, for example

Or find some likeminded individuals and play with them, that's always fun! Especially if you can speak with them in voicechat while playing. 

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

We can and should have both these aspects of gameplay.

I agree, but not everyone will and not everyone has to. I mean, the problem this thread is trying to discuss is whether the "reflex-oriented" part of the gameplay is so essential that we should try to inhibit modifications that reduce the amount of necessary inputs in any way, is it not?

And when two people (or more) have a different opinion on what this game should "focus" on, we need to either talk with each other until we find common ground or decide in one way and risk losing some members of the community.

@WiseKind (for example) believes we should not have any "reflex-oriented" gameplay, being able to "click fast" should not matter.

@real_tabasco_sauce and I (for example) disagree.

But this thread is for discussing why we disagree and bringing forth arguments for our "sides".

 

@WiseKind argues that the challenge should never be a mechanical one, the game should be purely won by strategic decisions (or did I get that wrong?).

But my question is... why?

The importance of APM has been an aspect of all rts games (I know of) so far, so much so that it has become a core trait of the genre itself. I think most rts players enjoy this aspect of the game.

Of course, 0ad does not have to "do the same" as any other rts, it could become the first rts where APM truly doesnt matter. But if you argue for such a strong deviation from the norm (which works very well for other titles of this genre), you have to make a sufficiently strong argument.

[Seleucids]

But the trees, the berries, the hunt... Can't see unless I replace their meshes and skins with some GUI mod

Too much messy grass on the ground... Need GUI mod to clean it up!

thats what GUI mods are for. 

Idk why automation is a part of this. Automation mechanisms will touch simulation so it's not a pure GUI mod anymore 

[Atrik]

1 hour ago, TheCJ said:

@WiseKind (for example) believes we should not have any "reflex-oriented" gameplay, being able to "click fast" should not matter.

@real_tabasco_sauce and I (for example) disagree.

But this thread is for discussing why we disagree and bringing forth arguments for our "sides".

 

@WiseKind argues that the challenge should never be a mechanical one, the game should be purely won by strategic decisions (or did I get that wrong?).

For me, I don't believe that there shouldn't be some "reflex-oriented gameplay" or that there shouldn't be any mechanical skill. But inefficient game features for me are just frustrating. I get that for some it's somehow providing dopamine, but I just dislike when not being able to translate my will into actions. There are amazing features in 0AD, like free draw formations and a couple great hotkeys like call to arm, queue action etc...

Some feel/felt broken to me. One example is sniping, where you need to make hundreds of clicks just to avoid an army from targeting a hero (see Box Targeting thread) when a proper feature could make it feel sooo much better with a 5 line of code patch.

In vanilla UI, you also have no way of knowing if, or which buildings are idle, I don't find this fun as maintaining production in buildings is pretty basic. Add to this a treacherous feature like auto-queue that is totally unreliable and you'll have me find it hard to enjoy a game.

If the game doesn't want to introduce these features because some people find these limitations enjoyable, I'm glad that I can still get them in a mod.