oshron

aah. good to know. generic symbols it is, then.

i personally dont see why not; 0ad isnt a commercial game, so i dont think copyright infringement can be brought into account. but id leave that up to the people who are actually making the game; im just an idea man

alternatively, they could just be semi-stylized versions of those regions' modern flags. for instance: Poleis Iberians Britons or they could just bear symbols associated with a specific tribe, even if its a quote unquote "sub tribe" within another tribe. by that i mean a tribe that could, say, fall under the blanket category of Gaulish even though they were a distinct people in their own right (i dont know enough about gaul to give any examples, though). ill also just specifically state what i meant by "variants" earlier: basically, programming would make it so that some different skins and equipment are presented for the same unit. this was present to an extent in AOM, and units could be modded so that sometimes they would have a different outfit than their companions (in the same way that a villager type unit would be either male or female even though they are both the exact same unit). a good example is a mod that i once had on AOM that made it so that greek hoplites had variants to their shields: sometimes they would have a snake design, sometimes a bull, sometimes a creepyass face, and sometimes a classical spartan lambda. im not sure if this is going to implemented for 0ad, but if it isnt it should; it adds to realism by not just making the soldiers carbon copies of one another, it makes them have individuality. how this applies to a standard bearer would be that each bearer would randomly have a flag associated with whichever civilization he's associated with (again giving a greek example, and just off the top of my head and not at all accurate): he could possibly have a spartan lambda, an aegis face, a lightning bolt, a helmet in profile, an omega symbol, or any number of other symbols associated wit the greeks

well then maybe it could be a fanmade multiplayer scenario. i still say that recreating some ancient cities in which buildings must be captured in order to build up from your basic units would be a fun map to play

well that could easily be remedied: for regular games, those factions that didnt have a singular unity simply woldnt have the Standard Bearer unit, but for the scenario editor, it would be okay to just bullshit our way through that because it would only be brought into play for a random map that is made just for fun and not accuracy, like the inclusion of a dragon as a nonconsumable animal in the game or being able to play a map that simulates the north pole. in that case, we could maybe be a bit creative and just use flags from different tribes/groups/states that fall into that faction as variants, so, say, if you played as the Hellenes, you could possibly get the flag (or a rough equivalent) of Sparta, Athens, or Macedon, even if you dont play with those elements of that faction.

the more major differences with the factions in AOM, short of their mythological elements, were just the heroes that they got, their methods of gathering favor, and any other specific differences that they had. for instance, they explained in the norse cinematic that the norse in that game have the ox cart, a mobile dropsite for resources, and that their villagers cant construct buildings, and that is instead done by their infantry units. for 0ad, one ofthese applications could potentially be in the second release with some of the nomad factions, like "While the horse archers of all other civilizations must stop to fire their bows, the Huns can fire arrows while in motion." something like that

heres an idea: how bout a Capture the Flag(s) mode? i came up with this not too long ago. there could possibly be special Standard Bearer units in later releases that grant morale bonuses to nearby allied units (who wouldnt be inspired when they see the flag of their homeland flying on the battlefield?), but then there could be a special editor-only version of the Standard Bearer that cant be killed and must be captured (more maybe converted, if Priest-type units like in other RTSs are brought into play) so that only one player controls all of the flags on the map, and once that happens, a timer similar to how it goes with wonder victories starts up alternatively, it could be that each player has their own standard bearer that they must protect, because if he's killed or captured, they lose ....wait, thats exactly like the Regicide game mode in AOK maybe a regicide something or other would be a good game mode?

well in the AOM campaign, you played as all three civilizations in the game in one continuous story. there was one tutorial campaign that introduced you to the greeks (which were the most basic civilization in the game: simplest unit setup with archers, spearmen, etc. and simplest method of gathering favor--essentially like any classical AOE faction) but when you entered the egyptian (and later norse) portions of the game, a special tutorial cinematic came up that explained the differences between the factions, basically just who the heroes and favor generation methods are. if there was something like that, it could potentially be that theres one tutorial campaign focusing on teh romans (which, as i understand it, are going to be the most rounded civilization) and then a special closing cinematic that explains some differences between the romans and the other factions in that release. additional cinematics could be added for the additional factions in subsequent releases

as long as the graphics are better than Civilization or Empire Earth 3 id be happy. i think the ideal should be AOM-class graphics; those ones were good, and that game was from back in 2002. you could easily make out everything, and thats the most important thing in my opinion

okay, here's all the updates thus far: UPDATED CIVILIZATIONS AUSTRO-HUNGARIANS ** all naval units cost more and take longer to be built (because modern Austria and Hungary are landlocked countries) Cultural Power: Conscription lets the Austro-Hungarians turn their Citizens and Militia into professional soldiers instantly for 100 gold each, though they must be within the line of sight of a Barracks or a Stronghold and only become infantry this way. before the World War II Era, they can also become horse cavalry if they are within the line of sight of a Stables. Unique Units **Winged Hussar (Class: Cuirassier; counter-cavalry available between the Exploration and Revolutionary Eras) **Kaiserschützen (Class: Stormtrooper; cliff-climbing infantry available from the Victorian Era: Imperial Age onwards) Unique Technologies Wonders **Hofkirche (available from the Exploration Era onwards) **Hero's Square (available from the Victorian Era: Imperial Age onwards) **Freedom Statue (available from the World War II Era onwards) **Nameless Library (available from the Cold War Era: Atomic Age onwards) Heroes AZTECS ** non-cavalry mechanical units cost 20% more and take 15% longer to be built (basically, all mechanical units except tanks and cars) **Civic Center can be built from the very beginning, and all gold costs are reduced by 20% Cultural Power: Cities of Gold lets the Aztecs occasionally make all of their construction and repairs cost only gold Unique Units **Jaguar Warrior (Class: Swordsman, upgrades to Rifleman and then Assault Rifleman; good vs. cavalry, including tanks available throughout the game) **Eagle Warrior (Class: Skirmisher; available throughout the game) Unique Technologies **Shorn Ones Wonders **Templo Mayor (available from the Renaissance Era onwards) **Revolution Memorial (available from the Revolutionary Era onwards) **Solar Power Station (generates one unit of energy every five seconds; available from the Cold War Era: Atomic Age onwards) Heroes BALKANS Cultural Power: Greek Fire ignites the projectiles of Balkan siege and ships, making them do 25% more damage to buildings and to units of their own type Unique Units **Armatolos (Class: Musketeer; infantry that uses a melee sword and ranged musket available between the Exploration and Revolutionary Eras) Unique Technologies Wonders **Parthenon (available from the Renaissance Era onwards) **Buzludzha (available from the Revolutionary Era onwards) **Olympic Stadium (available from the Victorian Era: Industrial Age onwards) **Pobednik (available from the Interwar Era onwards) Heroes BRAZILIANS ** wood is gathered 20% faster and medical technologies are researched 15% less Cultural Power: Mercenaries lets the Brazilians occasionally make all of their units train in half the normal time and cost only gold, though the gold costs are equal to their total normal resource cost Unique Units Unique Technologies Wonders Heroes BRITISH **planes do more damage to other planes and mecha are trained faster Cultural Power: Imperialism lets the British claim territories with military production buildings on provincial maps and build Civic Centers in half the time on non-provincial maps Unique Units **Congreve Rocket (unique class; cannon-like siege good vs. infantry and buildings with decent accuracy available between the Revolutionary Era and Victorian Era: Industrial Age) **SAS Commando (Class: Heavy Marine; available from the World War I Era onwards) **Chamberlain Knight (Class: Assault Rifleman; average abilities and improves the abilities of any HAAK he is in, available from the Modern Era: Information Age onwards) **Tortoise A39 (Class: Main Battle Infantry Tank; very high health, armor, and power but very low speed tank available between the World War II Era and Cold War Era: Atomic Age) Unique Technologies **Active Camouflage (researched at University from the Modern Era: Information Age onwards; makes Unique Units invisible while in motion, even while they are very near enemy units) Wonders **Westminster Palace Heroes CHINESE Cultural Power: Year of the Dragon increases the maximum population of the Chinese by 5% for each Era Advancement that they research (which also applies to Eras that they may have skipped) Unique Units **Chu-ke nu (Class: Archer; crossbow with a very high rate of fire available between the Renaissance and Interwar Era) **Flame Lance (Class: Flamethrower; sprays fire for very high attack vs. infantry and building available between the Renaissance Era and the Victorian Era: Imperial Age) Unique Technologies Wonders **Forbidden Palace (available from the Renaissance Era onwards) **Porcelain Tower (available from the Renaissance Era onwards) **Confucian Academy (available from the Interwar Era onwards) Heroes CONFEDERATES Cultural Power: Camouflage renders Confederate infantry and horse cavalry invisible while they are idle Unique Units **CSS H. L. Hunley (Class: Submarine; early submarine available between the Victorian Era: Gilded Age and :Imperial Age) Unique Technologies Wonders **Alamo Mission (increases the strength of Strongholds, available from the Enlightenment Era onwards) **Pentagon (available from the World War II Era onwards) **Rosenberg Institute (available from the Modern Era: Digital Age onwards) Heroes ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- still to come: the Dutch, the French, the Germans, the Indians, the Iranians, the Irish, the Israelis, the Italians, the Japanese, the Koreans, the Mongols, the Nazis, the Russians, the Saracens, the Scandinavians, the Sioux, the Songhai, the Soviets, the Spanish, the Turks, the Vietnamese, the Yankees, and the Zulu

well the idea is that the city is recreated with buildings already in the game; its not THAT difficult, its been done before in RTS games. it would also work well if, like in AOM, buildings in the editor can be moved so that they overlap and make solid "walls" that units cant move through. the only complications that i see are the possible need for some editor-only buildings in order to make things like the roman senate or the forums or public baths possible

ive been reworking the unit setup for this mod. i decided to simplify it as much as i can: instead of changing units entirely when upgrading, theres usually just one unit covering a long period of time. for instance, the frontline infantry line of units, which used to contain 7 units, now has only four: Swordsman, Musketeer, Rifleman, and Assault Rifleman. now, the uniforms and appearances of units change as you advance (for example, the Confederate Rifleman resembles a typical US rifleman in the Revolutionary Era, when they first become available, but automatically change into the classic gray uniforms of historic CSA soldiers in the Gilded Age and, in the WWI Era, they acquire butternut uniforms (which is derived from a turtledove novel). all the units are still upgraded constantly, but with new technologies from universities and other research stations without actually changing their unit type. its only when the unit would change completely that they upgrade teh actual unit. for example, in the Gilded Age, the Mortar becomes avaialble, which is similar in appearance to the Bombard unit from AOK, but in the WWI Era, he upgrades to Heavy Mortar and now has a more modern mortar that is carried around rather than pushed, and he remains a Heavy Mortar for the rest of the game. once im completely done with the new unit setup, ill share it

well the ancient world, too, but i think that an entire world map would be fun, too. know that im also making these suggestions with my mythology and modern mods in mind, and those represent a far broader version of humanity than the currently 6-12 civilizations that will be in 0ad, literally covering every continent except antarctica (and technically south america, but im counting that as an aztec region for the mythology mod and theyre represented by brazil for the modern one). at the least, a map of the old world and australia would be good oh! you know what else would be good? recreations of famous large cities and towns for urban warfare-type games, like a pretty much exact recreation of rome (though maybe it would have to be based on the modern city for the roads; how much do we really know about the layout of the ancient city itself?) or london or constantinople or alexandria or athens. there would be a neutral "gaia" player for the city itself and there wouldnt be many places where you could build something so youd have to capture buildings from the "gaia" player in order to start building up forces and eventually take over the city, maybe even driving some of your enemies out of the city and capturing the gates so that a siege starts up

what i would personally like would be one huge, huge, HUGE map that realistically recreates the world. ideally, there would also be certain teleport functions for this map (and possibly others) to give the illusion of a round world by making units teleport from one side of the map to the other (but only on the eastern/left and western/right edges ofthe map) so that, if an army is based in eastern asia, it doesnt have to move the entire length of the map in order to attack north america

ALL of those civilizations are already in there, except for mesoamericans because they are represented solely by the aztecs and not other mesoamerican tribes (though it could be conceivable that tribes that the aztecs subjugated and encountered could be "included", namely the Tlaxcala

"Lithic Peoples" sounds good to me most of the units are forbidden, kind of like with the aztecs, though theres even fewer soldiers than with the aztecs: they thus far have the Tribesman (Infantry Spearman), Mammoth-hunter (Infantry Javelinist), Wolfdog (Cavalry Swordsman), Tribeswoman (Female Citizen), Mantlet (Ram), and Trading Raft (Merchant Ship)they also have an as-yet unnamed Trader and Light Warship. this pretty much severe lack of units will be made up for in speed and strength and numerous myth units. also, since i was thinking of banning the barracks, all Cro-Magnons/Lithic Peoples will have the special trait of not researching armor technologies (and possibly rank upgrades like Advanced and Elite) and instead receive them automatically for all of their soldiers when they advance. i had come up with this a while ago in the very early stages of faction development when there was a seperate armory building where they didnt get shields at all and couldnt research armor, but COULD upgrade weapons technology. alternatively, the cro-magnons could have entirely unique weapon technologies that are researched at the civic center (say, Stone Weapons, Bone Weapons, Polished Stone Weapons, Obsidian Weapons, Copper Weapons, like that, though they would be virtually the same to whatever other weapon technologies there are for the other factions) i also had an idea for scenarios and random maps where, like in AOM, the "gaia" player (the neutral world player to which all of the resources, animals, aesthetics, and ambient buildings on a map belong) can be granted a different civilization so that the things the player sees in the wild are different. see, in some maps on AOM, there would be aesthetic ruins lying around to make the map look more interesting, and each civilization in that game had a different look for each building: the greek ruins resembled typical parthenon-like ruins, the egyptian ruins looked like they had been stolen from a temple, like that. anyway, i was thinking that this could maybe be taken a step further in Godstorm by making animals and other entities change as well. for example, the neutral "gaia" player could be made egyptian for a north africa-style map, and that would change the animals on the map, like regular domestic goats would become Nubian Rams, which would simply look different but function exactly the same as a goat from any other civilization. this would also help cut back on alot of complexity i had planned before that would have a few dozen animals in the game. some would HAVE to be unique, but i think this could work otherwise. also like AOM, i imagine that any unit could be given to "gaia" and any "gaia" unit could be given to a player civilization (so that a king could, say, have pet wolves that will fight for him in a scenario, or so that there could be centaurs in teh wilderness that are aligned to no one) oh, and since i redated the japanese to stretch from the Yamato to the end of the Heian, i was able to give them Heroic civilization hero units like the greeks instead of just giving them generic samurai and ninja. that also allowed me to work out the rest of their demigods. here's the japanese demigods and heroes: Samurai (City Phase demigod, Infantry Swordsman) Yamabushi (Izanagi's demigod, class undecided) Shinobi (Amaterasu's demigod, Infantry Swordsman that attacks at range and hand-to-hand with shuriken and a ninjato, respectively, and is also a 'stealth' unit) Kanabo (Izanami's demigod, Infantry 'Swordsman' armed with a heavy metallic staff taht smashes enemies, ignoring inherent armor) for the heroes, since there was still a lack of applicable heroes, most of them ARE entirely ficticious, but there are a few historical people in there. i'll give a little history about them and what i plan for their abilities to be. since theres so few compared the greeks, each major god has 3 heroes, first one in the village phase, then in the city, and then in the legend phase IZANAGI * Kintaro (Village Phase infantry swordsman, possesses incredible strength; im not too familiar with Kintaro's legend yet, but he's a famous folk character in Japan who possessed enormous strength, so im thinking he will kind of be an anti-building and -siege unit and could also maybe send enemies flying by punching them) * Minamoto no Yorimitsu (City Phase infantry archer; this is a historical character, so im not too sure on his real abilities, but i think ill make him a longbow-type unit so he has greater range, which supports real samurai abilities) * Jiraiya (Legend Phase infantry swordsman, occasionally turns into a gigantic toad to fight; though famous in the West for his inclusion in Naruto, Jiraiya IS, in fact, a folkloric character from Japan, a ninja who had mastered toad magic) AMATERASU * Tokoyo (Village Phase infantry swordsman; teh daughter of a nobleman who sought out to find her exiled father and offered herself as sacrifice to a sea monster in lieu of a young girl, she actually managed to kill the sea monster with a dagger, which lifted a curse from the emperor which had caused him to exile her father) * Tomoe Gozen (City Phase cavalry archer; a historic character and one of the few REAL cases of a female samurai) * Saito Musashibo Benkei (Legend Phase cavalry archer; a historical character, though his history has been retold and embellished so many times that it is now impossible to know where the the legend ends and history begins) IZANAMI * Zennyo Ryuo (Village Phase female citizen; a minor rain goddess, im thinking that Zennyo Ryuo's special ability will help with Izanami's economy rather than as a fighter) * Kiyohime (City Phase female citizen, transforms into a giant fire-breathing snake when she enters battle; this is a relatively famous legend involving a woman who became smitten with a monk and, when the monk tried to get away from her, she became enraged and turned into a giant snake) * Orochimaru (Legend Phase infantry swordsman, occasionally turns into a gigantic snake to fight; like with Jiraiya, most in the West only know of Orochimaru from Naruto, but he, too, is a folkloric character, a former follower of Jiraiya who tried to kill him and his wife, Tsunade)

oh! idea! perhaps taking a page out of AOE's book, the second expansion could possibly include minor tribes that dont have enough going for them to warrant a full civilization for themselves! they could be enabled or disabled like they could be in the EE2 expansion, but there could also be specifications as to which civilizations could be on each map type. perhaps the maps could be programmed to have one particular civilization as the "gaia" player. for instance, if a map simulated a french countryside, the "gaia" player would be the celts and the native tribes on that map would be celts aside from the britons or gauls, whoever those may be. on a "roman" map, on the other hand, one of the native tribes could possibly be the etruscans, and a tribe on a hellenistic map could be the thracians. like in AOE3, befriending a tribe could grant unique technologies and possibly units to you (for example, befriending some kind of frankish tribe could give you some unique throwing-axeman-type unit) and they could possibly send you some kind of tribute, giving incentive for the player to befriend them. or, a given tribe could be hostile to certain peoples (kind of like the minor peoples that are/were planned for The Last Alliance) and would therefore not join forces with them, like a greek people could be friendly to the romans and greeks but not to the persians

in retrospect, it would probably work best only as a multiplayer scenario. in any case, another idea has come to mind: the same scenario as before, but set in a geographically accurate map of teh world, so a roman empire in europe could be fighting a persian empire in china while some barbarian tribes out in africa, eurasia, and the americas watch, and possibly achieve first contact with the other civilizations

thanks for telling me that; ill work towards replacing the current norse names with ones in icelandic oh, and i came to a decision about the cro-magnons: ive decided that, because theyre so primitive, they will only get three citizen-soldiers: the Tribesman (spearman), Mammoth-hunter (javelinist), and Wolfdog (cavalry). since they have only those three, and they are all trained at the Civic Center, why should they have a barracks and complicate things? so, they are thus far the only civilization to have the Barracks as a forbidden building. they still get a fortress, though, more for fairness than anything else, and a battering ram. theyd still be able to USE a barracks if they capture it, but they just cant BUILD it on their own btw, ive been thinking, and maybe the best novelty name for the cro-magnons would instead be "Prehistoric Peoples" which allows for more freedom, as they arent just Cro-Magnons, and maybe even some fictionalization in that they could be Cro-Magnon/Neanderthal hybrids. personally, im content with them being named "Cro-Magnons", but what do you all think?

well i understand that, but i imagine they dont match the real geography of those locations; there were such random maps in AOK, too, and some in AOM, but they didnt match actual geography EDIT: here's an idea for a game mode. this would probably only work as a multiplayer game mode, though: Empire or Dependency. players decide before teh game begins which two players will be the major powers of the game. this would kind of depend on how many players can be in a game at a time. at the moment, im gonna assume the maximum is 12 just for this example and that theres 12 players in the game okay, before the game starts, the players decide that players 1 and 12 will be the major powers of the game. theyll automatically start off in the city phase (or maybe the town phase) and be on opposite sides of the map. the other players are all in the area between them and in the village phase. the "middle players" then either decide to join one side or the other, to remain neutral, or to just go on the offensive. you could say that these middle players are barbarian tribes. the barbarians basically become allies or, maybe more appropriately, puppet or client states of the empire players (players 1 and 12). then, basically, all hell would break loose and the two major players and their allies go to war. the empire players are at a huge advantage against the barbarians and can force tribute out of them at the point of a sword. this could result in some ofthe other players deciding to join forces with one empire or the other, or scare some into going neutral or joining forces with the threatening empire. basically, one of the empires just marches into their town with a huge army while the barbarians are still foraging and force the barbarians to join forces with them and pay tribute or face total destruction. and the game wouldnt end when one or both of the empires are gone; thered still be rogue barbarians out there, or the remaining empire could rally the remaining tribes under one flag and call an allied victory, or the barbarians could units themselves and rise up against the remaining empire, either destroying it or being destroyed themselves

i think a good alternate mode (kind of) would be to have "random" maps that simulate a real location like in AOK, preferrably one for each civilization: Maghreb (Carthaginians) Britannia (Britons) Western Europe (Gauls) Near East (Macedonians) Aegean (Poleis) Iberian Peninsula (Iberians) Persia (Persians) Mediterranean (Romans) a "hunger" mode would probably be pretty good: triggers slowly reduce your stores of food (say, ten units of it every minute) so that you not only have to keep gathering food but also need to be careful how you use it

well, hiram, im kinda working on a mythology mod that implements some of those civilizations you mentioned and others from times later or contemporary to 0ad. otherwise, if you want those guys, you might want to just stick to AOE for the time being

you have a point there

im not so much suggesting that the building's entire facade be replaced, but just that, maybe, the ownership designation for buildings could be a flag or something flying over the building (at least in the case of civic centers and fortresses; for temples it could be a statue) that could maybe not only bear the player color but maybe also a different design of flag for each culture, like for the romans it could just be a typical banner with a vertical SPQR on it

hey, i have a question/suggestion: in AOK, if you had a priest convert an enemy building, say, a house, that was of a different civilization than your own, the sprite of that building wouldnt change(at least not from what ive seen). units in 0ad can capture enemy buildings, right? well would that building change to resemble the building of the civilization that captured it, or would it continue looking like its old civilization? if it changes to that of the capturing player, i think it shouldnt; it would add to the realism of the game. maybe it could be done for civic centers where, say, the romans capture a persian civic center and just take down the persian flags and put up roman ones in their place, but the building stays the same. for temples, maybe they could just topple a statue of the other culture's god and replace it with one of jupiter or mars or whoever